Here is the rules we came up with

[Mike Licht]

After much work and discussion these are the rules I submit for final approval to the powers that be. Let me say thanks to all who gave input and helped me think this through. I really feel this could be the most popular Buick class ever. There is lots of room to open this up if need be in the future as well. See you in Indy, my job here is done :elefant:
Mike Licht

TFS Rules Final Draft
GNX, Grand National, T-Type from 84-85 (Hot Air) 86-87(Intercooler) or 89 TTA welcome to race


General

· Heads-up, 4-tenths Pro tree start and Pro ladder.

· Winner and runner-up are subject to re-weigh and re-tech immediately after final round or at any other time.

· Any entrant caught trying to deliberately break the rules will be disqualified from the TFS class.



Definition of "Factory Stock Appearing"



A factory stock appearing part is a GM part originally delivered on a 1981 to 1987 Buick Regal, GNX, Grand National, T-Type or Turbo Regal from Buick Motor Division and is externally stock in appearance. No external welding, cold weld epoxy, puttying, etc. may be done on any factory stock appearing part unless specifically stated. This rules also applies to TTA and unique parts used on those cars. TTA parts must be used on TTA, Regal parts on Regal only, hot air cars must use hot air parts ONLY. Intercooled cars must use intercooled parts only. NO half breeds



Chassis

· Seat belts, lights, horn, and windshield wipers must be operational.

· Helmet required. Cars must pass track safety inspection.

· Car should possess all applicable safety equipment for potential ET/speeds attained.

· Minimum car weight w/driver must be at least 3,500 pounds

· Complete stock, painted TR/GN body required.

· NO Fiberglass body parts.

· Stock operating glass windows and windshield required no lexan.

· Engine/firewall must be in stock location.

· Stock wheelbase required (108.0" measured).

· Factory stock appearing inner front wheel wells required. NO Trimming allowed

· Factory stock appearing front suspension components and mounting locations required w/any type stock location shocks.

· Factory stock rear suspension locations required w/any type stock location shocks.

· Any suspension stabilizer/reinforcement bars or traction enhancing devices are allowed.

· Swaybars may not be removed or disconnected but aftermarket units are allowed.

· No ladder bars or coil over equipped rear suspensions.

· No quarter panel modifications except rolled inner lip.

· Minor modifications to stock rear wheel wells (no mini-tubs).

· NO frame rail notching allowed.

· No wheelie bars or parachutes.

· Brake system must be either Power Master or vacuum boost operated, no manual brakes allowed. Hydroboost allowed on Hot Air car

· Brake system line locks allowed.

· Drive shaft safety loop required.

· Driver's name and club decal on side/quarter windows allowed. Two (2) Sponsor/vendor decals up to one-half square foot in size are acceptable.

· Series sponsor decal MUST be attached to car in specified location if required by sponsor. Sponsor to supply decals at every race. If you do not attach the decal you don’t race. Period



Engine

· Buick V6 production block casting (generally the 25526109 block, although, older non-Stage blocks allowed). <240CID maximum.

· Any valve covers and oil pan allowed.

· Production Buick V6 iron heads (8445 casting) ONLY (except TTA which must use production head 25536702)

· No dry sump-oiling systems allowed.

· Factory stock intake manifold required. No external welding allowed except for EGR block-off plate and/or repairs.

· *No modifications such as welding, cold weld epoxy, puttying, etc. may be done on any portion of the intake manifold runners to increase manifold air flow are allowed.

· No aftermarket cast aluminum or sheet metal intake manifolds of any kind allowed.

· Any cast aluminum intake plenum allowed.

· Any size single modified stock or aftermarket throttle body allowed. Single throttle plate only.

· Any type stock location exhaust headers are allowed. Welded in EGT gauge probe bungs are allowed.

· Any single or dual exhaust system allowed. Must muffle and exit in stock location (3" max size, including downpipe - measured 4.0" from the flange). Downpipe must be routed down through the stock location, no flex pipe allowed.

· Must run through mufflers in competition

· Must use DIS ignition , NO Distributor



Turbo

· Single 3-bolt turbo only.

· 86-89 cars must use stock compressor and turbine wheels. Hot air cars may upgrade to 86-89 wheels. No aftermarket wheels cut down to stock size allowed. Compressor wheel can be checked at any time with a “go - no go gauge” Turbine wheel may be checked under protest only. Protester to put up $100 for tear down which will be refunded if competitor is found to be illegal . Anyone found in violation will forfeit all points and be Disqualified for remainder of season and following season on first offense

· *No sleeves, welding or cold weld epoxy on any exterior surface of the turbo compressor housing *Note: One of the following turbine exhaust housings is allowed: A Garrett P/N's 430832-4 and 430832-5, PT&E P/N's THB376, THB576, Turbonetics P/N's 20240-63 and 30340-82 3 bolt turbine housings that were available November 1 of the previous year. *** The factory stock appearing turbine exhaust to downpipe flange connection must be used. The stock hot air turbine housing is also allowed on a hot air car

· Any air intake to turbo allowed.

· NO, external wastegate(s), NO external dumps allowed.



Intercooler

· Any factory stock intercooler is allowed. *No aftermarket stock location intercooler of front mount intercooler allowed TTA or GNX may be used in Regal

· NO big or “dutt” necks allowed, porting of stock neck OK

· NO re-coring or aftermarket cores allowed in stock tanks.

· No intercooler external spray cooling or add-on cold boxes allowed.

· Hot air cars MAY use alcohol injection since they have no intercooler.



Engine Management & Fuel System

· Stock, modified stock ECM only NO aftermarket fuel management systems allowed (DFI, Fel-Pro, Motec, etc).

· MAF optional.

· Thumbwheel chips allowed.

· No Delay boxes, Throttle stops or crossover boxes allowed.

· Any air induction system allowed.

· Any fuel pump(s) configuration/location allowed.

· Voltage increasing and fuel pump hot wiring devices are allowed.

· Factory stock appearing fuel lines only.

· Factory stock appearing fuel rail only.

· Any type fuel pressure regulator allowed.

· Any fuel injectors allowed.


· No 7th injectors allowed


· Factory stock fuel tank NO sump addition is allowed. Fuel cells not allowed.

· Gasoline fuel only, no additives, alcohol, or nitrous oxide injection allowed. EXCEPTION Hot air cars may use alcohol injection since they have no intercooler



Engine Compartment

· A/C and heating equipment may NOT be removed.

· Power steering operational w/belt in stock location.

· Stock alternator operational w/belt in stock location. NO Relocation brackets allowed

· Stock water pump operational w/belt in stock location.

· All engine accessories must be driven off the same belt. (hot air Exempt use stock belt and pulley system)

· Any engine compartment dress up allowed.

· Battery must be in stock location with secure hold down.

· Any stock type/location electric engine cooling fan(s) allowed.

· Any stock or replacement radiator in stock location allowed.



Transmission

· Any GM automatic transmission allowed. (TH200-4R, TH400, etc.)

· Any size torque converter allowed.

· Any transmission oil cooler and pan allowed.

· Transmission brake NOT allowed.



Differential

· Factory stock appearing GM differential housing required for vehicle entered

· Limited slip differential or spool allowed.

· Any gear ratio w/factory stock or reinforced differential cover allowed.



Tires & Wheels

· Any matched set of four (4), chrome steel or aluminum wheels allowed.

· Rear tire will be a choice: Choice 1- True Street radials w/sidewall designation up to and including 295. NO Slicks or “DOT” tires allowed here. No recap "dirt" or race tires" This includes M/T sportsman, drag radial, BFG drag radial, and Nitto extreme drag or any other tires designed for drag or road racing. Choice 2- DOT approved drag radials w/sidewall designation up to and including 235

· Front tire footprint must be at least 7" wide.



Interior

· Full stock appearing interior required.

· Any transmission shifter allowed.

· NO Race seats allowed

· Any additional aftermarket gauges allowed. A maximum of One (1) external gauge allowed.

[qwiktim]

Clarification request:

No Houston style downpipes, correct? Must use stock turbo and exhaust elbow, but a 3" downpipe from the stock exhaust elbow is allowed, correct?

[Mike Licht]

houston style pipes are OK stock elbow not needed

Mike

[qwiktim]

Even though I'd like to see tighter rules I'm in............... I just got a car to use for this class..............

:racer:

What's an honest projected E.T. for this class? Anyone have opinions on what it will take to be in the thick of things?

http://pages.sssnet.com/qwiktim/whitet22.jpg

[c&cgn]

I would like to see a couple of things a little tighter as well, IE 200-4R the only transmission and MAF sensor mandatory.

I'd still run the class as is though. If there ends up a race close enough to me with this class I'll go in it for sure.

My best guess ET wise would be 11.7's or so with someone with a built motor.

My T has a stock longblock and the only thing currently illegal about it for this class would be the Dutt neck on the IC and it runs bottom 12's.

Hey Mike, I never thought to mention that....what about guys with 16" wheels ?? Would they be allowed to use DR's that are 255's since that is the common size in 16" rims. There's probably alot fo guys with GNX or other style 16" rims that may already have these on their car. Just a thought.

[qwiktim]

True, the TTA's have 16" wheels on them......... and the only drag radial for them is a 255/50/16........... which considerably wider than the 235/60/15 for the Regal.

Is anyone concerned that the TTA's might have distinct advantages when paired up against the Regals? Aerodynamics being #1.........

[TurboBA6]

Same question here on the TTA Wheels - I'm thinking VERY SERIOUSLY about entering this class!! :)

By the way Tim, thats one "BEAUTIFUL T" you have there!!

[Nick Micale]

True, the TTA's have 16" wheels on them......... and the only drag radial for them is a 255/50/16........... which considerably wider than the 235/60/15 for the Regal.

Is anyone concerned that the TTA's might have distinct advantages when paired up against the Regals? Aerodynamics being #1.........

Do not see how we can allow a 255/50x16 MT tire on a 16" wheel with a 9.7" tread to compete against a 235/60x15 which has an 8" tread? :shock:

[qwiktim]

That's another concern with the TTA's in this class............ potentially wider tires, more aerodynamic, some say better heads and intercooler, completely different suspension setups, ect....... definate advantages over our Regal "bricks" with 60's style suspensions. Take the engine/trans set up out of a 11.80 Regal and put it in an F-body that hooks and you'll see a lower E.T. and higher mph.... that's a fact.

I'd like to see this as a Regal only class to keep things on a level playing field. Nothing against the TTA cars, but to be legit the Regals would need something to level the playing field......... and that gets too involved for this class when you start adding weight or whatever........

The TTA's and Regals are two completely different cars, not to mention a Buick and a Pontiac. Granted, they have a very similar driveline, but it's still a Pontiac. I know these cars have sort of been "grandfathered" in to participate in many Buick events, but would it be right to have a Ponitac win the "Buick" Horsepower Nationals? I suggest we think about this a bit.

[Mike Licht]

Drag radials are limited to 235 period. Frankly I would rather not have them at all. Run 15" wheels or run a regular tire you already have some advantages like Tim said. Who cars about the transmission a 400 will only slow the car down anyway at this level. same thing about the MAF, who cares, with a stock turbo is it really a big deal? you cannot tell me that a 3.5" gm sensor is much different than none at this point. We cannot say "stock sensor" you cannot even buy them. Firebirds in the class, well I don't see a flood of them but who knows. Actually I think a hot air might suprise us and hope they do. My opinion is we should just try this and see what happens, we can tweak the rules next year to fix any real problems and then lock them in from there. Nick and John will make that call soon

Mike

[James West]

Drag radials are limited to 235 period. Frankly I would rather not have them at all. Run 15" wheels or run a regular tire you already have some advantages like Tim said.

Firebirds in the class, well I don't see a flood of them but who knows. Actually I think a hot air might suprise us and hope they do. My opinion is we should just try this and see what happens, we can tweak the rules next year to fix any real problems and then lock them in from there. Nick and John will make that call soon

Mike


I agree with Mike in that we should see how things go the first year, possibly for next year dropping back to a true street radial only. I did have a couple of comments.

Are we stuck on the 7" minimum front tire footprint? I thought we were looking at going back to 6".

Also we should put in a comment saying that no retreading/recapping of tires is allowed. This would eliminate someone from a having a street radial tire recapped with a soft compound tread. I've seen this done on a Buick Electra 225 and they hooked real well.

Just my thoughts.

You did an excellent job on the rules Mike, congrats!!!

Thanks,

James West

[qwiktim]

There again, that would be skinnier than stock.........

I think I'm going to end up being the "sacraficial lamb" so to speak, and get my butt kicked. I'll use a Houston downpipe and an aftermarket air intake to try and stay competitive, but my car will be put together much more stock than the rules are requiring...... I'll use the stock turbo and stock intercooler, stock throttle body and upper plenumn, stock headers and crossover, stock torque converter and 2004r, stock rear end, stock upper and lower rear control arms with poly bushings, stock 7" T wheels and matching sized 235/60/15 tires on all 4 corners, the rears being drag radials, ect........

I'll probably get made the fool by an aerodynamic F body with an adjustable rear suspension with anti-roll bar, Draglites, TH400, aftermarket throttle body and plenumn, high dollar headers, ect......... but that will just help me with excuses on why I got beat so badly.... I have my game plan in mind and will stick to it.
:moa:

No matter, I can't wait........ this is going to be some fun. :party43:

[1of1547]

Are 8445 the only production heads that will be allowed? Mine has the 293 heads on it. Is there any performance difference in the two? I have been kicking around the idea of running this class. I still have my stock intercooler, just need a stock center section.

[Mike Licht]

I made the recap adjustment, thanks I forgot to do that. I am going to leave the front tire size and head ruling up to John and Nick.

Tim,
You and I will be in the same boat buddy. I have Metco control arms and our big sway bar, I am also using the stock T wheels with the 235 MT radials. I have a bone stock motor BUT I may put another one together just so I don't blow this one up. I have a big TB no improvment there. I do have a few other tricks up my sleve and am willing to see just how much boost a stock turbo will make (what wastegate :rock: ) last time I raced heads up was at the first Bristol race but I did go .511 on a .500 pro tree hopefully I still got it. I am pretty old and slow now though.

SEE YA AT THE LINE!
Mike

[Mike Licht]

I talked this over with Nick and we are going to let the tire and head rule stand. Ta's will of couese be allowed the proper hed for those cars ( I almost typed TA heads which would really open a can of worms :) ) As far as I am concenred rules are final.

Mike

[Quick6'n'-K.C.]

I was wondering about this class-
i went 12.0 a few years ago with a bone stock car running the stock elbow but running race gas, can we allow methanol injection for the 86-87 cars this year?
i noticed its fine with the 84-85 cars having meth, does this mean i can delete my intercooler and put meth on my 87 to be fair?
It sure would be nice not having to buy race gas again if we can run meth.
I will even it up by running a real radial tire.

I am currently ready for this class except for the meth setup, this is my daily driver heads never off.
thanks mike
BW

[Quick6'n'-K.C.]

Rear tire will be a choice: Choice 1- True Street radials w/sidewall designation up to and including 295. NO Slicks or “DOT” tires allowed here. No recap "dirt" or race tires" This includes M/T sportsman, drag radial, BFG drag radial, and Nitto extreme drag or any other tires designed for drag or road racing. Choice 2- DOT approved drag radials w/sidewall designation up to and including 235


I assume you went with Choice 2 and need to edit the first post for what tires are allowed.
Question for you, are the western wheels allowed with a 235 MT? They look pretty close to the factory wheels. Just wondering since they are 1.5 inches wider, maybe not even necessary.

As for my last post, i read all the rules, seems fine the hot air cars get the advantage of meth, as long as they keep the 84-85 intake manifold.

Also, is a electric fan OK on the bone stock IC?

1 more about the front sway bar, can it be installed but the end links removed?

AWESOME CLASS!
I am so glad it stayed stock IC and stock turbo because that is the limiting factor of this class. So easy just to bolt on a 44 and run low 11s with the boost turned up.
AWESOME AWESOME AWESOME, i cant wait for it.
Almost gets me more excited than my 3000 lb sage green car with a te45a turbo.

please let me know
BW

[Mike Licht]

I was wondering about this class-
i went 12.0 a few years ago with a bone stock car running the stock elbow but running race gas, can we allow methanol injection for the 86-87 cars this year? NO

i noticed its fine with the 84-85 cars having meth, does this mean i can delete my intercooler and put meth on my 87 to be fair? if you switch to the 85 intake headers and turbo maybe. otherwise NO

Mike

[Mike Licht]

Rear tire will be a choice: Choice 1- True Street radials w/sidewall designation up to and including 295. NO Slicks or “DOT” tires allowed here. No recap "dirt" or race tires" This includes M/T sportsman, drag radial, BFG drag radial, and Nitto extreme drag or any other tires designed for drag or road racing. Choice 2- DOT approved drag radials w/sidewall designation up to and including 235


I assume you went with Choice 2 and need to edit the first post for what tires are allowed.
No you get to make the choice either big radials or 235 drag radials

Question for you, are the western wheels allowed with a 235 MT? They look pretty close to the factory wheels. Just wondering since they are 1.5 inches wider, maybe not even necessary.
Not needed on a 235 tire

As for my last post, i read all the rules, seems fine the hot air cars get the advantage of meth, as long as they keep the 84-85 intake manifold.

Also, is a electric fan OK on the bone stock IC? I don't see anythig saying no but i will tell you that at speed it will work better without the fan

1 more about the front sway bar, can it be installed but the end links removed?NO sway bars must be connected

AWESOME CLASS!
I am so glad it stayed stock IC and stock turbo because that is the limiting factor of this class. So easy just to bolt on a 44 and run low 11s with the boost turned up.
AWESOME AWESOME AWESOME, i cant wait for it.
Almost gets me more excited than my 3000 lb sage green car with a te45a turbo.

please let me know
I did :) lets race
Mike

[Quick6'n'-K.C.]

Rear tire will be a choice: Choice 1- True Street radials w/sidewall designation up to and including 295. NO Slicks or “DOT” tires allowed here. No recap "dirt" or race tires" This includes M/T sportsman, drag radial, BFG drag radial, and Nitto extreme drag or any other tires designed for drag or road racing. Choice 2- DOT approved drag radials w/sidewall designation up to and including 235


No you get to make the choice either big radials or 235 drag radials

I did :) lets race
Mike

Ok , understand now, its the same class but you get the choice of either the radial with the larger tire or the drag radial with the smaller tire.
Sounds good.
I appreciate the info
I am already ready :cowboy:
BW

[Ttype83]

Mike,
Couple of questions..not that the 83 and olders can really compete..but.
onlt 8445 heads..I have the 293 aswell..as would any thing older than a 82. they are the same heads expect for the water jackets I believe and the NO Distributor ...dang it thats all I got :shock: Well the wife said I can have another car if I get her a HD cycle...Sounds like it's going to be a fun class.

Jim

[JEFF STRUBE]

Sorry had to Ask some Questions Stock Turbo so no Up Grade Wheel like a 34 wheel stock intake Housing No Neck up Grade on Intercooler. Can you run aftermarket wheel's . I do not think you are being Fair on the TTA they came with 16s. So you are saying Max M/T Drag Radial 235/60/15. 3500 with Driver.

[Mike Licht]

You can run aftermarket wheels. TTA has advantages over a Regal and at lest we let them in where most other events will not let them race at all in a class.

You are correct on all other things
Mike

[gtboost02]

hi mike,new guy to the board. i'm thinking about coming out to run in this class.are homemade ram air set ups ok? i also have an aftermarket inlet bell? thanks CHUCK

[Mike Licht]

bring it sounds good to me
Mike

[gtboost02]

my mistake mike, i see in your first post that this is a class for indy. i doudt i'll make that i thought it was for a race in ohio. is there anything going on in ohio this coming summer? thanks CHUCK

[JayC]

Is an aftermarket inlet bell allowed?

Are these rules 100% final? Anything not mentioned in these rules is fair game?

[Mike Licht]

Inlet bell is ok. Nick is the final word but AFAIK this stands SOOOO.......whatcha gonna build????
Mike

[JayC]

I dunno.. I was talking to a guy here local about throwing something together to run in this class.. maybe run some 11.90s or something :)

Carbon fiber should be added to the list of non-allowed items. Just as soon as you dont mention it, someone will show up with CF bumpers because it's not fiberglass.

[Nick Micale]

Is an aftermarket inlet bell allowed?

Are these rules 100% final? Anything not mentioned in these rules is fair game?

This class is Turbo Factory STOCK!:icon16:

We do list only some things you cannot do, and some you can do. If it is a modification from a factory part, and it is specifically not stated, it is not allowed.

Carbon fiber body parts would not be allowed in this class.

[JayC]

This class is Turbo Factory STOCK!:icon16:

We do list only some things you cannot do, and some you can do. If it is a modification from a factory part, and it is specifically not stated, it is not allowed.

Carbon fiber body parts would not be allowed in this class.

So if this is indeed a factory STOCK class then why is MAF removal allowed? Replacement MAFs I can understand as the OEM MAF is a thing of the past but complete removal? I dont really care either way as I'll run some sort of MAF but Im just wondering why this was allowed and other things werent.

[Mike Licht]

The whole idea here it too have a class that opens lots of guys to race with as many different setups as possible. Using the turbo and intercooler to level it off. I hate the name and that is all it is AFAIAC. I suggested a few others in the thread but we were stuck with this
Mike

[JayC]

Cool

Buckle up, boys :)

[Nick Micale]

So if this is indeed a factory STOCK class then why is MAF removal allowed? Replacement MAFs I can understand as the OEM MAF is a thing of the past but complete removal? I dont really care either way as I'll run some sort of MAF but Im just wondering why this was allowed and other things werent.

Good point Jay.

As I remember, Mike and I did discuss MAF or not, and since it is a dis-continued item, and there are other means to replace it using the stock ECM, we made that call.

This is not a performance factor as the requirement for the stock turbo inlet and wheel is the limiting factor for air induction.

One other comment, this is the first year for this class and these new rules. We do realize we may have to make some changes along the way, thanks for your input.:rockwoot:

[Mike Licht]

Cool

Buckle up, boys :)

Don't sing it, BRING IT! :asskickin

Mike

[SGRIM]

Don't sing it, BRING IT! :asskickin

Mike
:bigok: :icon16:

[GRNDNL]

How may events?...Is there going to be a Points Series?.....

MSD and/or a 2 step allowed?....

South Side style rear bars allowed?.....

Any limit on front or rear wheel widths?....

Will a non drag type Bias Ply tire be allowed?...

Any front sway bar?....

TFS......Turbo Factory Street....leave any "stock" referance out.....

[Mike Licht]

How may events?...Is there going to be a Points Series?.....

MSD and/or a 2 step allowed?....

South Side style rear bars allowed?.....

Any limit on front or rear wheel widths?....

Will a non drag type Bias Ply tire be allowed?...

Any front sway bar?....

TFS......Turbo Factory Street....leave any "stock" referance out.....

MSD? for me yes, Nick?
South side, yes
NO rim limits but tire limits
Bias plys welcome but ONLY NON racing types no recaps blah blah
Front sway bar must be on and connected

Change the turbo, intercooler and a couple other small things and your in, wanna team up so I don't have to change my car back?
Mike

[Otto J]

Just to be a pain in the ass Mike, But they dont call it a fel-pro anymore:icon16:

[Nick Micale]

MSD? for me yes, Nick?
South side, yes
NO rim limits but tire limits
Bias plys welcome but ONLY NON racing types no recaps blah blah
Front sway bar must be on and connected ......

I do not see any performance advantage for the MSD or the southside bars, so no issue here.


The front sway bar must be connected like Mike stated, and no smaller in diameter than stock.

[JayC]

Are tubular a-arms allowed in the front? I wanted to do a brake upgrade. If not, is cutting the spindle acceptable? If there's no performance advantage to southsides then I dont see why tubulars up front wouldnt be allowed.

[gtboost02]

87 Turbo T

[JayC]

To clarify

The factory stock appearing turbine exhaust to downpipe flange connection must be used. The stock hot air turbine housing is also allowed on a hot air car

This means you have to use a stock elbow, correct? I assume the elbow can be ported? I hope "stock appearing" does not include the old BGC piece. Clarification on that would be great too.

Also, some input on my A-arm question would be cool.

[86BGN]

[/font][/color]· Gasoline fuel only, no additives, alcohol, or nitrous oxide injection allowed. EXCEPTION Hot air cars may use alcohol injection since they have no intercooler[color=black][font=Verdana]

So no alky for intercooled cars, that sucks! Wouldn’t there be a lot more participation from people with daily drivers if you could run alcohol. I would race in this class, but I run alky. Race gas sucks for the street.

[Bryan C.]

We are following NHRA safety rules, correct. So faster than 11.50 we will need a cage. This is what I understand, I just want to make sure we comply.

[Quick6'n'-K.C.]

To clarify

The factory stock appearing turbine exhaust to downpipe flange connection must be used. The stock hot air turbine housing is also allowed on a hot air car

This means you have to use a stock elbow, correct? I assume the elbow can be ported? I hope "stock appearing" does not include the old BGC piece. Clarification on that would be great too.

Also, some input on my A-arm question would be cool.

houston style pipes are OK stock elbow not needed

Mike

Soooooo WHICH IS IT GUYS??????????????????
Stock elbow or THDP???????
BW

[SGRIM]

Ttttt

[SGRIM]

How about Fiberglass Bumper Fillers, says no fiberglass but not really a weight savings just $$$$$ savings??

[Nick Micale]

How about Fiberglass Bumper Fillers, says no fiberglass ...............

That would be considered a legitimate replacement part.

[Bryan C.]

Soooooo WHICH IS IT GUYS??????????????????
Stock elbow or THDP???????
BW

I would say stock elbow....

[GRNDNL]

I do not see any performance advantage for the MSD or the southside bars, so no issue here.


The front sway bar must be connected like Mike stated, and no smaller in diameter than stock.


Any "stock" sway bar?......

How many races?...Just Indy or?.....

[Quick6'n'-K.C.]

I would say stock elbow....

Nice name! Still up in the air as to what the actual DP is legit.


Jay C still doesnt know what actually is correct for the class, i posted that and he is still asking questions.

I say it should be stock turbo, stock intercooler, stock chip anything goes.
Mike surely is using his mafpro system and Jay Carter is dreaming up a stroker kit somewhere...
Best man wins
BW

[JayC]

Na.. Im going to be within the rules 100%.

[Quick6'n'-K.C.]

Na.. Im going to be within the rules 100%.Soooooo WHICH IS IT GUYS??????????????????
Stock elbow or THDP???????
BW

So which is it?
BW

[Bryan C.]

Nice name! Still up in the air as to what the actual DP is legit.


Jay C still doesnt know what actually is correct for the class, i posted that and he is still asking questions.

I say it should be stock turbo, stock intercooler, stock chip anything goes.
Mike surely is using his mafpro system and Jay Carter is dreaming up a stroker kit somewhere...
Best man wins
BW

What is wrong with my name? :nixweiss:

[SGRIM]

What the HELL are ya'll talking about:nixweiss:

1. THDP was OkAYED right at start, I thought:thinking:

2. It is Indy only, far as I know.

[Mike Licht]

THDP is OK
Mike

[SGRIM]

Are tubular a-arms allowed in the front? I wanted to do a brake upgrade. If not, is cutting the spindle acceptable? If there's no performance advantage to southsides then I dont see why tubulars up front wouldnt be allowed.
How about this question?

[Mike Licht]

You need to get with NICK I wrote up and propoised the rules he has the final say on whats legal or not not me
Mike

[GRNDNL]

What the HELL are ya'll talking about:nixweiss:

1. THDP was OkAYED right at start, I thought:thinking:

2. It is Indy only, far as I know.


I'm not going to do this for only one race, is there any other races in the works?......

[Mike Licht]

I have no idea I was asked to help get this set up for Indy, James West wanted to bring this to BG but I think that got overruled. He said he was going to race this class however. I would love to see this become a series and I would help make that happen.
Mike

[Mike Licht]

How about the BURA Buick Unity Racing Series. We can run TSM and TFS together plus what ever other class that wants to run. Anyone interested? I throw some money at it to help it get going
Mike

[SGRIM]

How about the BURA Buick Unity Racing Series. We can run TSM and TFS together plus what ever other class that wants to run. Anyone interested? I throw some money at it to help it get going
Mike
I would if some events were to be closer to me rather than way up NORTH or Northeast!

How about Dimmwitty VA, lots of Buick guys in VA. Or Rockingham NC?

[GRNDNL]

How about the BURA Buick Unity Racing Series. We can run TSM and TFS together plus what ever other class that wants to run. Anyone interested? I throw some money at it to help it get going
Mike

Great Idea Mike........:beer:

[Ttype83]

I would if some events were to be closer to me rather than way up NORTH or Northeast! Or Rockingham NC?
I'd go for the Rock, my mother-in-law lives close:rockwoot: I may try for this class, but may not have the new engine ready by then...
I noticed that 83's are not listed, can they run?
Can I use a 109 block in my 83?
Can I hog out my stock turbo for larger fins?
Can I use my MSD 6BTM?

[SGRIM]

The Rock would be great:rockwoot:

I also still need to know on the front brake switch:nixweiss:

[YI_work]

This class is Turbo Factory STOCK!:icon16:

We do list only some things you cannot do, and some you can do. If it is a modification from a factory part, and it is specifically not stated, it is not allowed.

Carbon fiber body parts would not be allowed in this class.

This statement bothers me. So any change from factory has to be OK'd by you or someone else. If only 2 or 3 people know ALL the rules it only benifits them. Everyone else is just fishing in the dark.

[turbopowered68]

This really sucks I have a 1968 chevelle with a stock GN engine 200 Trans and even the GN OE gas tank and I would not be aloud to join. Along with a ton of this advantage you regal guys are crying about the TA's look at a chevelle then talk about aero dynamics. THIS SUCKS I meet all requirements and exceed the weight requirement with no driver and one foot under the scale. Buick powered is Buick power. Stop the radical Buick only and hate the rest of the world frame of mind. THIS SUCKS:tantrum2: :tantrum2: :tantrum2: :tantrum2:

[Bryan C.]

This really sucks I have a 1968 chevelle with a stock GN engine 200 Trans and even the GN OE gas tank and I would not be aloud to join. Along with a ton of this advantage you regal guys are crying about the TA's look at a chevelle then talk about aero dynamics. THIS SUCKS I meet all requirements and exceed the weight requirement with no driver and one foot under the scale. Buick powered is Buick power. Stop the radical Buick only and hate the rest of the world frame of mind. THIS SUCKS:tantrum2: :tantrum2: :tantrum2: :tantrum2:

You need to look at the Hybrid Class or the Brackets. Most classes designate Buick bodied and Buick powered.

[Nick Micale]

This really sucks I have a 1968 chevelle with a stock GN engine 200 Trans and even the GN OE gas tank and I would not be aloud to join....... Stop the radical Buick only and hate the rest of the world frame of mind. THIS SUCKS:tantrum2: :tantrum2: :tantrum2: :tantrum2:

So we should piss off all the loyal Buick owners that come to a BUICK race event and let them race against a Chevelle?:shock:

I doubt that this "sucks" any more than you going to a Super Chevy meet and NOT being allowed to run there either!:confused:

As was stated, at least we do accomodate hybrids like yours in a specific class we have made for non-Buick bodies. Please bring your Chevelle and try to win some of our "Buick $$$"
at Indy.

[Ttype83]

I noticed that 83's are not listed, can they run?
Can I use a 109 block in my 83?
Can I hog out my stock turbo for larger fins?
Can I use my MSD 6BTM?
What about the Carbed guys questions????????:nixweiss:

[SGRIM]

Are tubular a-arms allowed in the front? I wanted to do a brake upgrade. If not, is cutting the spindle acceptable? If there's no performance advantage to southsides then I dont see why tubulars up front wouldnt be allowed.

Please someone look at this as well. I am at the point I got to decide now:SHOCKED:

[turbopowered68]

So we should piss off all the loyal Buick owners that come to a BUICK race event and let them race against a Chevelle?:shock:

I doubt that this "sucks" any more than you going to a Super Chevy meet and NOT being allowed to run there either!:confused:

As was stated, at least we do accomodate hybrids like yours in a specific class we have made for non-Buick bodies. Please bring your Chevelle and try to win some of our "Buick $$$"
at Indy.

They should not comeplain to race a chevelle with all the restrictions on the drive line And the handicap they would get is worth quite a few HP in weight and aero dynamics. It’s not like i am trying to do this. a 1976 Toyota wagon that I raced in Brooklyn it had a rotary engine. My cars weight with me in it was 1680 lbs. boy that car was fast. Any way that set up was unfair because it was about 600 to 700 lbs lighter than the Mazda’s.
About the super Chevy meets they suck too every body is for this and against that. Then again so are the ford, Buick, Pontiac, extremists.

I am pretty shore I won't win but it should be fun running against other "stock" GN drive lines. I guess ill have get my t-type ready I just got it well 2 days ago lots of luck and fun to all .I will try to have the t-type ready so that I can join you guys. And hopefully learn allot as I don’t want to stay dumb for ever LOL.

Ok enough BS where can I get an official printout of the rules with all the technical stuff.

[Nick Micale]

Are tubular a-arms allowed in the front? I wanted to do a brake upgrade. If not, is cutting the spindle acceptable? If there's no performance advantage to southsides then I dont see why tubulars up front wouldnt be allowed.

A tubular a-arm or modified spindle should only be necessary if the brakes are being up-graded? It would not be in our best interest to NOT allow and modification that improves safety and is NOT a performance enhancement.

This would fall into a catagory where common sense would prevail, so your answer from me, is it is allowed in the TFS class at Indy and most likely at Salem as well.

[turbopowered68]

What about the weight is the weight going to stay the same or get reduced that would make a deference.3500 lbs is the limit but by moving the weight from the front to the rear is always helpful sorry not my place. But it would make for a good argument on race day to get somebody booted. Especially if you poss a threat. i

[turbopowered68]

So we should piss off all the loyal Buick owners that come to a BUICK race event and let them race against a Chevelle?:shock:

As was stated, at least we do accomodate hybrids like yours in a specific class we have made for non-Buick bodies. Please bring your Chevelle and try to win some of our "Buick $$$"
at Indy.
"Is anyone concerned that the TTA's might have distinct advantages when paired up against the Regals? Aerodynamics being #1........." by qwitim

"That's another concern with the TTA's in this class............ potentially wider tires, more aerodynamic, some say better heads and intercooler, completely different suspension setups, ect....... definate advantages over our Regal "bricks" with 60's style suspensions. Take the engine/trans set up out of a 11.80 Regal and put it in an F-body that hooks and you'll see a lower E.T. and higher mph.... that's a fact.

I'd like to see this as a Regal only class to keep things on a level playing field. Nothing against the TTA cars, but to be legit the Regals would need something to level the playing field......... and that gets too involved for this class when you start adding weight or whatever........

The TTA's and Regals are two completely different cars, not to mention a Buick and a Pontiac. Granted, they have a very similar driveline, but it's still a Pontiac. I know these cars have sort of been "grandfathered" in to participate in many Buick events, but would it be right to have a Ponitac win the "Buick" Horsepower Nationals? I suggest we think about this a bit." By qwitim

The last time a checked TAs where built by pontiac. so now your answer to me doesn't make any sence

[SGRIM]

A tubular a-arm or modified spindle should only be necessary if the brakes are being up-graded? It would not be in our best interest to NOT allow and modification that improves safety and is NOT a performance enhancement.

This would fall into a catagory where common sense would prevail, so your answer from me, is it is allowed in the TFS class at Indy and most likely at Salem as well.
Thanks for the clarification!:arco:

[SGRIM]

Please clarify the "4 matching wheels" for me!

Does it mean for example 4 15X7's or just 4 matching appreance wise wheels?
Can you have ie... 7 in front and 8 in rear?

[Otto J]

i would think 4 matching wheels means same brand not same size

[SGRIM]

i would think 4 matching wheels means same brand not same size
That what I was thinking too:thinking: and hoping:icon16:

[Bruce]

A tubular a-arm or modified spindle should only be necessary if the brakes are being up-graded? It would not be in our best interest to NOT allow and modification that improves safety and is NOT a performance enhancement.

This would fall into a catagory where common sense would prevail, so your answer from me, is it is allowed in the TFS class at Indy and most likely at Salem as well.

But why the ban on manual master cylinders?.
All they do is make the system less prone to failure. The line pressures are similiar, so there's no real performance advantage.

[Nick Micale]

If you register to run TFS Bruce, we might make an exception!:D

[Bryan C.]

That what I was thinking too:thinking: and hoping:icon16:

From what I understand that is correct. The point is to not have different style wheels front and rear, appearance wise. I believe it all fits with the Fast with Class slogan.

[Nick Micale]

Please clarify the "4 matching wheels" for me!

Does it mean for example 4 15X7's or just 4 matching appreance wise wheels?
Can you have ie... 7 in front and 8 in rear?

In my opinion, I would think it would mean similar in appearance, at least.

[Bruce]

If you register to run TFS Bruce, we might make an excertion!:D

Stranger things have happened...
I'm beginning to hate just passing on a theft recovery.

[SGRIM]

So matching brand "X" in 7's up front in 8's in the rear is fine?


One more question, I personally rather not use them but, what about after market pulley's like the RJC package??

[turbopowered68]

i just got the title for my car ('87 t-type) and it says the WT is 3212lbs i WT 220sh do i realy have to make 3500 lbs.

[SGRIM]

That don't really mean squat, what the title says. Trust me unless you have cut the car up alot or using fiberglass body parts you want have any trouble making 3500!!

[turbopowered68]

That don't really mean squat, what the title says. Trust me unless you have cut the car up alot or using fiberglass body parts you want have any trouble making 3500!!

thanks.
i was going to buy a cement bag.LOL

[jsta6]

No kidding.

I have done all kinds of weight saving stuff to my car, and it still weighs 3600 w/o me in it.

Most tracks and some bigger moving companies have scales you can use.

[JayC]

According to Precision, none of the housing listed as being allowed will work with a stock turbine wheel. Therefore, I'd like to ask to have them removed from the list of allowed housings.

[SGRIM]

According to Precision, none of the housing listed as being allowed will work with a stock turbine wheel. Therefore, I'd like to ask to have them removed from the list of allowed housings.
BUMP!

[SGRIM]

Ttttttt

[SGRIM]

Ttttttt
bump:D

[KShef]

anybody there???
:)

[SGRIM]

:bbtribe:

[SGRIM]

Ttt

[Sweet6]

I have been out of the loop on this, but can TTAs still participate? I remember there was some debate on this before.

Just wanted to participate in something.

[Bruce]

i just got the title for my car ('87 t-type) and it says the WT is 3212lbs i WT 220sh do i realy have to make 3500 lbs.

Take it to a set of certified scales and see what they say.

[turbopowered68]

Take it to a set of certified scales and see what they say.

Thanks allot Bruce but after reading some of the rules on the hybrid and some of the other classes at this point I don't think I am interest in running in Buick only races.
As it looks like they want you to run in the Buick class but want to protect the GN.

But for my information I will take my car to the scales.

Thanks again Bruce.

Dave

[Bruce]

Thanks allot Bruce but after reading some of the rules on the hybrid and some of the other classes at this point I don't think I am interest in running in Buick only races.
As it looks like they want you to run in the Buick class but want to protect the GN.


I'm with you, I'd like to see a Buick Hybreed class. I have a shell, that I haven't started on yet, and it's be nice to race it in some *misc* class when it's done. I doubt that will happen thou, since it seems the rules are just for a select few, rather then to promote legal track racing. When the NHRA turned it's back on Innovation, and took to bracket racing I said (at the time), it was the death knoll for the NHRA trying to stick to it's roots. The NHRA started in Pomona as a way to get people from Street Racing, and when's the last time anyone's seen a *street car*, in any NHRA race (other then a couple of the slow brackets)?. It's sad testimony on how an organization can so completely and totally turn it's back on it's roots.