Tfs?

[Nick Micale]

OK, TFS, what does this mean???

It stands for Turbo Factory Stock, a turbo heads up class for entry level, and mainly street-driven vehicles. Seems like the majority of turbo Buick owners who occasionally race their vehicles have no heads up venue in which to compete? All the other heads up classes belong to "dedicated race cars". This should be a low-buck, fun filled class that anyone with a little work can be competitive, a place for "hands-on" learning in actual competition!

Yes, there are bracket classes, but the thrill of a heads up race is where drag racing started. So in an attempt to "get back to basics", let's hear it for a TFS class.

Some initial comments from racers are: use DOT tires, must have AC in place, minimum suspension mods, no evpensive engine parts like alum. heads, roller rockers, no high $$$ turbos, stock location intercoolers, stock-type exhaust, any ECM/computer system, stock interior, etc.

Now that you get the picture, you guys [and hopefully gals too!], give us your input. There are plenty of owners out there that want to race, and here is your chance to help design a fun place to start.

Please post your comments and ideas here, or in your own thread, so you can help us define this sure to be popular class. :racer:

[EightSecV6]

Nick,
I would suggest making it a stock intercooler/turbo (maybe modified with a neck). This would limit the class to the hi 11 second range, I would think it would be popular.

[gnracer1]

im in if a 45a turbo is allowed with a stock intercooler

[JEFF STRUBE]

Nick i like the idea as well what would be the limit on the turbo and injectors are the cars going to have to run a stock down pipe what about the air meter i think these is a good idea full 2 1/2 exhaust no Hemco hats stock hat with powerplate 109 blocks iron heads stock vavle covers make it a ET Street tire class only 26X10.5 max and put weigh on the class like no lighter than 3400 and no fiberglass. Make them run matching stock wheels or matching aftermarket no mist matched wheels. On the intercooler stock but they may have Aftermarket neck. 62 mm throttle body max 3 inch down pipe max . What should be the max size on the Turbo ???? What about the TTA could they run in these class. The down pipes that are still around for these car are from ATR 3 inch they only sell them with External gates i think the turbo should be limit to a TE-63 with max of a .71 exhaust housing and no bigger than 60 pound injectors. A 240 inches max. I think 3 bolt turbos only I think they need to be weighed after ever round as well to keep it fare to all racers Stock Ecm no mods to drivers for injectors.That my two cents

[Nick Micale]

Thanks for your input Jeff.

Here is some of the comments I have received from potential racers in this class:

Tires - DOT radials or biased, 265/10.5x15 max

Turbo - TA style w/61mm wheel max

Computer - any, stock or aftermarket

Exhaust - 2-1/2" max, like factory, dual muffs ok

Injectors - any

Downpipe - 3" max

Engine - stock iron heads, stock valve covers & no spacers,
stock type or replacment headers, 3.8 block

Intercooler - stock location, limit rows maybe 19?

Shifter - aftermarket ok but must be in stock location

AC, full stock interior and all street legal items required.

[gnracer1]

guess im out bc i have a 45a turbo

[86brick]

Thanks for your input Jeff.

Here is some of the comments I have received from potential racers in this class:

Tires - DOT radials or biased, 265/10.5x15 max

Turbo - TA style w/61mm wheel max

Computer - any, stock or aftermarket

Exhaust - 2-1/2" max, like factory, dual muffs ok

Injectors - any

Downpipe - 3" max

Engine - stock iron heads, stock valve covers & no spacers,
stock type or replacment headers, 3.8 block

Intercooler - stock location, limit rows maybe 19?

Shifter - aftermarket ok but must be in stock location

AC, full stock interior and all street legal items required.

Well since my car fits into this class I guess I'll add my 2 cents worth...

1) I say keep it DOT radials, but allow the 275/50/15 and 275/60/15 tires

2) I like the 61mm max compressor wheel, but allow the TE style turbos for the sake of more participation (keep in mind I have a TA49 turbo myself so this is in no way me lobying for my car I just feel it would bring more cars to this class)

3) I think it would be best to keep this class a stock ECM class with a MAF sensor as they came from the factory (allow the ME chip)...

4) 2-1/2" or 3" exhaust as long as it is in the stock location like the factory (no single shot exhaust)

5) I say keep it stock location IC, but don't limit the rows to 19 even though I have a PTE 19 row stock location IC... Reason being? You basically limit the stock location IC choices to the PTE, Mark Jackson 17 row, and old school ATR 15 row..... CAS V4 is 21 row, V4-R is 27 row, KM unit is 24 row, Thunder Fab unit is 20 row, BGC is 23 row, so as you can see it would seriously limit the # of stock location ICs allowed thereby keeping cars that could fit into this class from being able to race...

Other than those few things everything seems to look good... Only other thing I would add is "200r4 trans only and NO trans-brake" and before it is brought up I would allow alcohol injection as well.....

[86brick]

Few other things I thought about...

Minimum weight 3500lbs w/ driver (my junk will probably be 3700+ with me in it, but I'm fat so I can't help that LOL), Regal or TTA allowed (really doesn't matter to me although I think it would be nice to see the poor TTA guys finally have a HU class to run in)....

[cdsttype]

what happens to the tss guys
10.50 to 11.50 real street driven
cars with easy street manners.
When built right tss are as fast as
some tsm cars.Is there going to be
a class for them. :twak:

[Bryan C.]

What about the hot air cars. When I inquired about putting a hot air into TSM, I was told it was for the 86-87 cars and the hot airs really did not fit in.

[Quickwrench]

I loved this class, way back when...I agree with several points, but it would be easy to sneak some things in if you aren't specific...

1. I agree, DOTs would be the way to go. 10.5" max width, by a go/no-go template. 28" max height. Specify a minimum tread depth, or someone will come with shaved tires.

2. 3550 weight break. Stock body panels/glass, period. No headlight removal for cold air.

3. Bill's got the right idea on the stock intercooler rule, just like the GSCA had it years ago. No big neck. Porting of stock neck(s) OK. It's TFS, remember? You can pick one up for $50 - $75 anymore, even if only for the race. Specify '86 - '87 units only, or TTA units will show up [with more fins/inch].

4. Stock-appearing intake, plenum, TB (porting OK), rail, A/C, alternator, coil pack, 6 injectors, etc.

5. Start right off by specifying 8445 heads, 109 blocks, 2004R trans, stock rear end housing, and close Pandora's box.

6. Exhaust: 3" max downpipe. 3" max exhaust piping, single or dual. Stock exit required. Stock/aftermarket driver's side header, stock passenger side.

7. <240 ci. Any internals OK.

8. Turbo: Stock TA-style compressor housing with stock Garrett .63 turbine housing. This shuts down Pandora, as well.

Question: What's the point of letting in aftermarket ECMs? If stock MAFs weren't getting so rare, I'd mandate them. Personally, I thought it was cool when they required the factory stock air box for TFS. Try to spool a TA-66q through [b]that...:dong:

[Dusty Bradford]

Looks like I sold my TSS car at the right time :arco:

IMO, TSS is still a good class. The only thing limiting it from getting big is the TA series turbo. Most guys don't bother to buy a TA turbo. Leave the rules like TSS but only 109 blocks and limit the turbo to a GT67 or TE-45a or equal. Maybe limit a 3 inch turbo inlet or something. I don't think going backwards to a stock downpipe or little turbo will accomplish much. Most cars with little downpipes and stock turbo's are 12 second rides and are truely stock. What if a guy slides in with what looks like a 12.50 car and runs 11.20's. It will happen and people will cry.

I have gone 11.00's on a ported neck stock intercooler and run a stock elbow and downpipe into the 6.80's 1/8 mile. With a stock MAF set-up you can run easy 11.30's and look dead stock. Is this what TFS wants to be?

I thought the reason to change TSS to something else was to increase participation. Walk around at the nats and look at most of the modded cars. 90% will have a TE style turbo and stock ecm with either front mount or stock location i/c. These are the cars you want in TFS for a large turnout.

I really think however that no matter what you do, it's hard to increase car count in a class like TSS. Look at TSM, it's huge because it's a racers class. All of it's participants are willing to push their cars. TSS was a smaller class but we pushed ours as hard as we could and it intimidates other possible racers. They look at a car similiar to theirs but they run 11.80's and we went 10.60's. You simply can't have a class for the guys who want to come in and run 22psi and run heads up. IMO, this is what limit's car count, there just isn't enough people out there willing to push their semi-stock car to the limit it takes to compete at the heads up level.

[Nick Micale]

.....I thought the reason to change TSS to something else was to increase participation. Walk around at the nats and look at most of the modded cars. 90% will have a TE style turbo and stock ecm with either front mount or stock location i/c. These are the cars you want in TFS for a large turnout.

I really think however that no matter what you do, it's hard to increase car count in a class like TSS. Look at TSM, it's huge because it's a racers class. All of it's participants are willing to push their cars. TSS was a smaller class but we pushed ours as hard as we could and it intimidates other possible racers. They look at a car similiar to theirs but they run 11.80's and we went 10.60's. .....

Dusty, thanks for your input. I would like to add my personal comments about this class since I am promoting it here, as I did as GSCA race director [One reason I was NOT allowed to have ANY input there on rules?]. My idea is to have this an entry level heads up class for owners getting started, and those wanting to keep their car streetable.

To me, TSS has been a joke for a few years. You did well, but Red dominated with a stage block, stage heads and a TA turbo that must have been specially modified. In 2004, only 3 cars in the class, last year only a couple more.

A low 10 sec. car with NO roll bar in competition is not a smart or safe way to operate in a major race event. With the NHRA/IHRA roll bar rule now for cars 11.99 and faster, this class is perfect for those not wanting to install a bar, but still wanting to compete. We WANT it to be a street car class, NOT a race car class. :haha:

My thinking for TFS is that lots of those owners that have been undecided for years will try this class. Others will find it easy to take a step back - smaller turbo, intercooler or ? - and compete here. Personally am very happy to the many favorable responses and feel this will be a popular class. Keep it coming guys. :rock:

[Dusty Bradford]

I agree the rules were catered around 1 particular combo. TSS is stuck where it's at because of the TA rule. Personally, I like the idea of a 109 block with a smaller TE turbo rule. You still have some exciting racing with impressive e.t's yet still very streetable. The Lady (yes lady) I sold my car too drives it to car shows now and it's set up just like it was when I raced it but with the boost turned down. She could crank the boost up and run 10.60's anywhere showing all TSS cars, without a raptor MAF :laugh: ,can be driven anywhere. But I know what you're getting at. IF the roll bar rule will be enforced and TFS has to be slower than 11.99 then we're screwed. Just a TA-49 and some fuel help will go 11's.

The problem I see with a mostly stock class is there aren't that many near stock cars that will race. Just about everybody has a bigger turbo and the guys who are more interested in really racing have more supporting mods like i/c's and downpipes. If you truely want to limit the performance then it will require stock downpipe and i/c. Now you have a range of cars from a stock car with TE-44 to one with a 45A, cam and heads. Both look similiar but one runs 12.00's and the other runs 11.30's.

I am just thinking how to get a nice car count.

TE style turbo limited to 3in 2 1/2 out .63 housing PTE or garrett
iron heads
stock intercooler, big neck o.k.
stock downpipe and full exhaust
stock ecm
3500# min
DOT's
Full Body and interior street cars

I'd hate to see the current true 109 block TSS cars out of a class though. You have 3-4 people who race that class every year, at least since I got involved in the class. I'd love to see them just be able to swap to a TE style turbo and keep racing.

[Mike Licht]

Here is my take.

Any turbo up to 61mm compressor.
Any stock location intercooler
Stock ECM
109 block, 8445 heads, stock intake un-welded
DOT tires
A/C & full stock interior
Any catback exhaust up to 3" exit in stock location, mufflers required
Stock rear suspension

MUST USE :
stock downpipe & elbow, test pipe or gutted cat OK
Stock air cleaner with no external mods (holes or cut out bottom)

I will build a car for this just post the rules before I do much else to mine
Mike Licht

[Mike10secv6]

............

[dlevey]

The original TFS class was meant to be a entry level heads up class,cars built in the true spirit of the class would run from 11.70's to 12.00's at 112-114 mph but like usual the class got ruined by guy's taking TSS cars and and putting stock downpipes and intercoolers on them and running 11.40's at 118. The real answer would be to probably to make rules dictating the appearance of the cars and then making a simple class index of 12.00. That would eliminate ringers and reward consitency and driving skills as well as show how well a "stock" car can run.

[Nick Micale]

I do not know what's going on here but it seems all class rules are being changed around..........what ever happened to showing up and having fun?
For me, you can make rules all day long and i will still not be able to race because of a welded raised runner intake that WILL NOT be takin off the motor........Oh well, have fun guys!

If you have noticed, we do have bracket classes for guys like you to have fun and win some $$$. :rock:

For the heads up classes, rules are necessary as you well know, and technology requires us to keep make changes to keep current.

[Bryan C.]

The original TFS class was meant to be a entry level heads up class,cars built in the true spirit of the class would run from 11.70's to 12.00's at 112-114 mph but like usual the class got ruined by guy's taking TSS cars and and putting stock downpipes and intercoolers on them and running 11.40's at 118. The real answer would be to probably to make rules dictating the appearance of the cars and then making a simple class index of 12.00. That would eliminate ringers and reward consitency and driving skills as well as show how well a "stock" car can run.

Would it be better to just have a cutoff of 12.0, not an index, but a quickest et achievable. Any size turbo, any intercooler, any injector, you just cannot go faster than a 12.0. Run them heads up on a pro tree. This will keep all cars within the rules and eliminate the need for cages.

I would also like to add, no transbrake and no delay boxes.

[Dusty Bradford]

:thinking:

quickest et achievable


you just cannot go faster than a 12.0

This is an index class. Call it what you want but you will have cars capable of e.t's faster than 12.00 who will be letting off or using the brakes to keep from breaking out.

No matter how you look at it, you might as well bracket race. Instead of each racer picking their own dial in you are running a whole class on the same dial in, just from a pro-tree.

[Jake]

My take:
Turbo: 67 or 66 compressor wheel, 3"/2" compressor cover, any exhaust wheel, 3 bolt exhaust housing
Intercooler: any stock location
Engine: 109 or any production 3.8 from 1984-1987. No 4.1 engines. 8445 or 6293 heads, stock intake manifold, no stroker cranks
any 3" downpipe, external wastegates ok
Weight penalty for A/C delete.
Powermaster or vaccum brakes, no manual brakes
2004R trans, no trans brake
8.5" rear, stock location suspension.
Stock ECM, modded for big injectors is ok.
Stock appearing throttle body, ported ok.
28x10.5 limit on tires, slicks should be allowed.
Full exhaust that exits behind the rear axle, must have at least one muffler
Car must be legal, if the car cant pass a legitimate tech inspection for the times it runs, it doesnt compete, period.

This describes my car as well as many of the local cars in my area. I'd like to see a class like this. I think this would be a mid to low 10 second class.

[86brick]

My take:
Turbo: 67 or 66 compressor wheel, 3"/2" compressor cover, any exhaust wheel, 3 bolt exhaust housing
Intercooler: any stock location
Engine: 109 or any production 3.8 from 1984-1987. No 4.1 engines. 8445 or 6293 heads, stock intake manifold, no stroker cranks
any 3" downpipe, external wastegates ok
Weight penalty for A/C delete.
Powermaster or vaccum brakes, no manual brakes
2004R trans, no trans brake
8.5" rear, stock location suspension.
Stock ECM, modded for big injectors is ok.
Stock appearing throttle body, ported ok.
28x10.5 limit on tires, slicks should be allowed.
Full exhaust that exits behind the rear axle, must have at least one muffler
Car must be legal, if the car cant pass a legitimate tech inspection for the times it runs, it doesnt compete, period.

This describes my car as well as many of the local cars in my area. I'd like to see a class like this. I think this would be a mid to low 10 second class.

Just my opinion, but...

I don't think Nick is looking to reinvent the wheel with the TFS class... It sounds like you want another TSS class like the GSCA already has... As Nick stated he is looking to make this more of an entry level HU class (more of a mid to low 11 second class) for the true street driven "daily driver" type cars... TSM is mostly made up of mid to low 10 second cars so really a TSS 109 class would almost be like a stock appearing TSM class....


Bottom line: Everybody will have different opinions of what the rules for a specific HU class should be (this is mainly because most everybody is looking for a class where their car fits the rules and can be competitive) so I think Nick will just have to take the "Bull by the horns" so to speak with the rules for TFS.... At least we know he won't be building the rules around a car like the GSCA is famous for doing :beer:

[Nick Micale]

I think 86brick must be following me around and hearing lots of the same stuff I have been hearing and saying! :rock:

This will be the STREET heads up class, as the other HU classes are truly race cars.

If you see a low 10 sec. run at Indy, bet the car will have a roll bar, or it will be the only run for it in any class. The tech there will be done by their staff who follow NHRA rules. We need a heads up class for real street cars that do not have, or want, a roll bar installed.

We will limit AND CHECK the turbo inlet, unlike the TSS class that just stated a TA turbo. Brick is also right, the rules will NOT be made around a specific car, but done for a FAIR class that is competitive, inexpensive, fun and easy to participate by average owners. Maybe we will even get some of the ladies here as serious competitiors ? :racer:

[Mike Licht]

We have pleanty of places for race cars to run. We need a place for an average guy with a simple car to do something besides bracket race, I HATE bracket racing myself and would rather not even race if this is what I have to do. I don't want a roll bar, I don't want a 10 second car. Had lots they just are not as much fun to drive IMO. This is the reason I suggested the stock air box and stock turbo elbow with downpipe. It just makes sense to me, that way turbos and stroker cranks really don't matter as much. Limit the compressor to 61MM and the guys should be able to build high to mid 11 cars pretty easy that will be fun and reliable.

Mike

[Bryan C.]

I think 86brick must be following me around and hearing lots of the same stuff I have been hearing and saying! :rock:

This will be the STREET heads up class, as the other HU classes are truly race cars.

If you see a low 10 sec. run at Indy, bet the car will have a roll bar, or it will be the only run for it in any class. The tech there will be done by their staff who follow NHRA rules. We need a heads up class for real street cars that do not have, or want, a roll bar installed.

We will limit AND CHECK the turbo inlet, unlike the TSS class that just stated a TA turbo. Brick is also right, the rules will NOT be made around a specific car, but done for a FAIR class that is competitive, inexpensive, fun and easy to participate by average owners. Maybe we will even get some of the ladies here as serious competitiors ? :racer:

This is kind of what I was driving to with my comments of limiting the class to 12.0. If cages will not be run, then the class is effectively limited to 12.00 or 11.50 depending on how they tech. In this case the cage would be the limiting factor.

[JEFF STRUBE]

We have a Turbo T/A it has a TE 63 turbo and a ATR 3 inch down with a External waste gate thats the only 3 inch down they make for them now could we run in these TFS class or No

[Dragonational]

I love the fact that everyone just skipped over Bryon C's comments. Belive it or not guys the Hot Air cars are still Grand Nationals and just because we arnt intercooled doesnt mean we shouldnt be able to play. I for one love the idea of TFS but leave it as TFS in other words Stock appearing on a "run what you Brung" type. If you can modify the crap out of the car then its not really stock is it. Harry

[Mike Licht]

I love the fact that everyone just skipped over Bryon C's comments. Belive it or not guys the Hot Air cars are still Grand Nationals and just because we arnt intercooled doesnt mean we shouldnt be able to play. I for one love the idea of TFS but leave it as TFS in other words Stock appearing on a "run what you Brung" type. If you can modify the crap out of the car then its not really stock is it. Harry

I am all for having some hot air cars tell us what you have in mind?
Mike