Damn Head gaskets!!

[Mike10secv6]

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[HairDrier]

Wow four places thats impressive. Better than one big one like this

http://bobdittmar.tripod.com/blown87combobs1987buickgrandnational/id2.html

[R.MERRITT]

Time for some Cometics. :deal:

[Reaper]

a local racer blew the shit out of a set of cometics! it was very impressive. blew cly. 4 and 5. he had a cam sensor go nuts on him and well they gave way. i will see if i can get pic of them for ya'll. they did keep the the oil and the water sperate though.


Dathan

[HairDrier]

Get some studs instead of head bolts and go for the Jason Cramer setup. I have that on my car and it is bullet proof. If your heads are lifting the gaskets will not blow but you will still not see great times. The head studs should help.

Are your heads ported? Doing so should make it so you dont have to run so much boost

[Intercooler]

Steel shims aren't bullet proof. I have them and they seep combustion gas into the cooling system pressuring into the overflow. Besides you have to torque them everytime you get on it hard. :marchmell

[HairDrier]

Steel shims aren't bullet proof. I have them and they seep combustion gas into the cooling system pressuring into the overflow. Besides you have to torque them everytime you get on it hard. :marchmell
Sounds like one or more of your head bolts was not sealed properly where it intersects a water Jacket. I have no such problems with mine, though your car is much faster than mine.

Torque them every time you get on it hard? Kind of a over statement dont you think? True you should check them after the first heat cycle and maybe once a season after that, but hardly "every time you get on it hard" especially with head studs.

[Quickt]

IMO anything is better than the stock head gaskets. The cometics seem to do a nice job. I have been low 10s with FP1000s with only head bolts. Have blown one set of gaskets in 5 years and the car was lean and showed no knock. If you are lifting heads I would bet there is a reason.

[Intercooler]

Sounds like one or more of your head bolts was not sealed properly where it intersects a water Jacket. I have no such problems with mine, though your car is much faster than mine.

Torque them every time you get on it hard? Kind of a over statement dont you think? True you should check them after the first heat cycle and maybe once a season after that, but hardly "every time you get on it hard" especially with head studs.
How would combustion gas make its way outside the fire-ring and down through the stud thread into the coolant system if the gasket itself wasn't leaking?
Jason Cramer routinely has to retorque his heads after racing. Red's Hot-Air routinely had to retorque his heads then finally gave up and went to 125 ft.lbs. on the studs to try and cure it to no avail then finally blew one. AZGN routinely had to retorque his studs then finally blew one and switched to Cometics. I put 200 miles on my car this year and retorqued three times. Finally went to 100 ft.lbs. and it won't hold over 17 PSI of boost. Switching to Cometics. I use to sell the 1200 plus the gaskets to other Buick people but don't have any of it now. Some people have luck with them but they are high maintenance! NO DOUBT ON THAT PART OF IT! If you ask around a little you will see many people that went away from them. On a stockish car they will probably be fine but when you are making some decent HP or running high boost and the heads lift it is hard to get them to seal again.

[Quickt]

[QUOTE. If you are lifting heads I would bet there is a reason.


Hummm I dont have the problem and been 133mph in 3740lb car 8 bolts and cometics. I seen 2 cars run in Reynolds run 140mph with 8 bolt heads in 3550lb cars. One was running 30+lb of boost blew a piston and did not hurt the gaskets. Could it be the tune? I think it could be.

[Quickt]

I personally pushed out the stock gaskets in the 11s. I could never get in the 10s with them. Pull hi gear and the car would start that hi gear pull and pooooof they were gone. They sucked for me. Try the cometics they will do a better job for you. BTW that is kicking some tail with a stock shortblock.

[Intercooler]

Is there any special way to installing the cometic gaskets?
Do you install them dry?
On head studs do you torque them to arp specks?
I also do not like the idea of dropping the pan to clean the pick up screen when ever you have a stock type head gasket that is on its way.
Yes thanks,i hope i can get a few more mph and a very good et out of the combination before i go stage II.
I hope the bottom end will survive some trans brake launches :eek:


They didn't come with any specifics on install. I think most are putting them on dry and to ARP specs.



We can post pictures here! :applaus:

[tweaked]

Nothind - NO head gasket can survive serious detonation!

Essentially the head gasket is your pressure relief valve.

Either it (the head gasket) goes OR ... something else does.


On stock cast iron heads we recommend the steel shim head gaskets with Permatex clear RTV and the STOCK "Torque to Yield" head bolts.

If you like the ARP head bolts or studs ... BE CAREFUL not to over torque them. It can cause deformation of the heads resulting in uneven clamping forces.

Have a nice day.

LC

[gasketmaster]

LC has already spoken but I'm going to back him up :)

Something is wrong.Too many people have walked this path without continuous head gasket problems.

My friend Ryan and I have ran hundreds of passes in the mid to low ten's on the stock gaskets.

Ryan's car went as quick as 9.99@135 on the very same head gaskets and ARP bolts we put in his engine originally during his rebuild.The 9.99 came about four years and hundreds of passes after the rebuild :SHOCKED:

It could be a few different things:

Detonation - most likely

Cylinder pressure spike - least likely - could be caused by your tune up/compression ratio/camshaft/ect. It is possible to have a combination that has a severely peaky pressure spike.This problem actually can cost you HP as it applies high pressure on the piston over a short period during a time that has less leverage on the crankshaft vs a little less pressure over a longer time period during the correct time.The environment is so hostile in the chamber during this type of problem that detonation would normally occur before the pressure alone has a chance to lift the head.

Ease back on the timing 2-4 degrees at full song as that will help either problem.Be sure you are running C-16 or similar fuel.If you are running fuel that is rated less than C-16 at 30 psi then you've most likely found the problem :zahn:

[Pronto]

Nothind - NO head gasket can survive serious detonation!

If you like the ARP head bolts or studs ... BE CAREFUL not to over torque them. It can cause deformation of the heads resulting in uneven clamping forces.

Have a nice day.

LC
I am no engine expert or builder but I have heard this from many engine builders that I have talked to. On one hand you want the heads to stay put but on the other if you tighten head bolts too much you CAUSE them to blow out the gaskets by distorting the heads and/or block. Now this was with n.a. engines but still if you warp the head your not going to seal.

[mgmshar]

On stock cast iron heads we recommend the steel shim head gaskets with Permatex clear RTV and the STOCK "Torque to Yield" head bolts.

If you like the ARP head bolts or studs ... BE CAREFUL not to over torque them. It can cause deformation of the heads resulting in uneven clamping forces.

When you say the steel shim gaskets, you're talking about the GM gaskets, P/N 25524599, correct:fragez:

Thanks,

[SuperSix]

This is not something that just happens after one pass,it is caused by cylinder pressure lifting the head.......period!

Take time doing your headgaskets - you'll be doing them again soon.

Using your logic, Diesels would be blowing gaskets left and right. Instead of ignoring the gurus - you may want to listen and learn.

IMO, of course. :rolleyes1

[StageII86]

A little food for thought..........what do you think would happen if the stage 2 guys only ran 8 head bolts/studs an there stage 2 blocks?
If you think hard its an easy answer, but would the result mean there detonating?
Some people will catch my drift! :marchmell

...This is true, just ask the SBF guys w/ the 4-bolt per cyl blocks and big blowers. They can't keep the head from lifting either.

[gasketmaster]

The heads aren't lifting on ten second cars here in the Northwest..........must be less gravitational pull on them out here :rofl:

[gasketmaster]

When you start making power you will no what i am talking about!
Take care.

3550 lb. car..........135 mph :zahn:

[nova II]

If you want to see a good example of heads LIFTING watch some top fuel passes! Once in a while they will replay good runs though a camera facing backward off the car< great motor shot>. well to make it short there are flames shooting out 12"- 360 degrees on both heads the entire run. Now this wanst or isnt a blown engine pass it was a record pass by Kenny B. :SHOCKED:

[gasketmaster]

Your car or your friends??
Also i do not want this to be an argument,some people have luck with felpro 9441pt head gaskets and some people do not.
I have 4 years on those head gaskets and they were burned but not blown,i will try the cometic or steel shims with head studs to try and get my car in the nines with my unrebuilt factory shortblock.
:beerglass

Ryan's car

I'm just poking fun my friend.........good luck :beerglass

[Turbo Uffe]

Hello guys!

I had the same problem with my heads and gaskets here on the other side. :fly:

The engine was almost not in runned when i imported it from USAand first thing i saw was a waterleak on #6 coming out between the head and the block. This engine and heads has the o-ring groove in the heads and uses the last version of Fel Pro's O- ringed head gasket. We couldn't see anything with the grooves since we checked the deep on them.
Just after the head gasket change water where spraying heavily from #1... opned the engine again! :bawling: Now we did a better check on the grooves and they waren't wide enough and where not centred to the cylinders. Anyway.... ordered new original gaskets from USA (can't buy anything here in Sweden) and filled the grooves with cheremical metal. One thing i found that is very strange is the torque sequense on the stock gaskets...... torque them 3 times during 24 hours.

Back to business again... went to the track a few weeks later and blow the head gasket on #1 but now this time into the lifter gallery.
When i opened the engine i felt that the torqe on the heads where way off from what they should be.... very loose i would say.

The block and heads were recently machined and now the heads looked like a storm on the seven seas.
ARP head bolts where used.

I guess this is combo; between the stock gasket, the strange torque sequense and NOT having head studs.

Now i'm gonna have the block O-ringed with copper gaskets and head studs.

Yea,yea,yea.... i know some of you say that the head gasket is like a "pop off valve" and are there for security and not blowing a hole in the piston or something..... personally i don't buy that. :albert:

[HairDrier]

Hello guys!

I had the same problem with my heads and gaskets here on the other side. :fly:

The engine was almost not in runned when i imported it from USAand first thing i saw was a waterleak on #6 coming out between the head and the block. This engine and heads has the o-ring groove in the heads and uses the last version of Fel Pro's O- ringed head gasket. We couldn't see anything with the grooves since we checked the deep on them.
Just after the head gasket change water where spraying heavily from #1... opned the engine again! :bawling: Now we did a better check on the grooves and they waren't wide enough and where not centred to the cylinders. Anyway.... ordered new original gaskets from USA (can't buy anything here in Sweden) and filled the grooves with cheremical metal. One thing i found that is very strange is the torque sequense on the stock gaskets...... torque them 3 times during 24 hours.

Back to business again... went to the track a few weeks later and blow the head gasket on #1 but now this time into the lifter gallery.
When i opened the engine i felt that the torqe on the heads where way off from what they should be.... very loose i would say.

The block and heads were recently machined and now the heads looked like a storm on the seven seas.
ARP head bolts where used.

I guess this is combo; between the stock gasket, the strange torque sequense and NOT having head studs.

Now i'm gonna have the block O-ringed with copper gaskets and head studs.

Yea,yea,yea.... i know some of you say that the head gasket is like a "pop off valve" and are there for security and not blowing a hole in the piston or something..... personally i don't buy that. :albert:

Is your engine detonating?

[Turbo Uffe]

Is your engine detonating?

Nope, run's the car on CSP 112 together with SMC alky kit@ 21PSI.

[mase]

Just asking, but what enginemanagement are you using? You said you are very good with tuning, so what methods of a/F are you using to dial your program in with (seat of the pants, dyno, FJO wideband, Felpro with wideband?????) And how long have you been tunning DFI's for? If this is a chip car retract my statement. How are you so confident it wasn't your tunning that caused this? Not flaming you. My buddy Paul ran in the 9's back in the day with stock gaskets and high boost. I highly doubt cylinder pressure caused it. Sounds like tunning to me.

[Turbo Uffe]

Just asking, but what enginemanagement are you using? You said you are very good with tuning, so what methods of a/F are you using to dial your program in with (seat of the pants, dyno, FJO wideband, Felpro with wideband?????) And how long have you been tunning DFI's for? If this is a chip car retract my statement. How are you so confident it wasn't your tunning that caused this? Not flaming you. My buddy Paul ran in the 9's back in the day with stock gaskets and high boost. I highly doubt cylinder pressure caused it. Sounds like tunning to me.

Who are you asking?

[mase]

that question was for Mike10secv6.

[LikeMy6]

TTT Move it up :fly:

[mase]

Mike10secv6- i don't understand the pm stuff. I can't seem to access it. Post your answers to my questions in here. Sorry this computer stuff is new to me.

[mase]

Don't take offense to my post please it was not intended to be a slam. You just seemed very defensive when people ask if your tunning could be the problem. I just wanted to know how you tuned it. Its a disscussion board where people through around ideas and views, so let your guard down dude i mean no harm. Where i live is irrelivent to my post.

[GN1]

I just removed a set of Dana 5957C off my Stage engine. They had taken a beating and still looked perfect. Great Gasket! I will have to use them again.
This is off the Dana site.

Solicor by Victor Reinz is also a proven performance cylinder head gasket. The technology that went into solicor performance cylinder head gasket. was initially for diesel application where 20 to 1 and greater compression ratio are necessary. This technology has been applied to the solicor performance cylinder head gasket product offering . Solicor performance cylinder head gasket are composed of a high- density, non-asbestos facing material laminated to a solid steel core. This core provides radial strength for a wire ring encased in the stainless steel combustion flange. Solicor performance cylinder head gaskets are coated with a unique fluorocarbon coating to ensure the microseal of fluids and to help resist the scrubbing of the cylinder head. Solicor by Victor Reinz is designed with the combustion seal in mind. For those application where 12 to 1 or greater compression ratios are prevalent and for turbo-charged, super-charged, and nitrous oxide engine, Solicor performance cylinder head gasket are the gaskets that will perform for you.

http://www.engineparts.com/products/ghiperf.htm

[turbodave]

I just removed a set of Dana 5957C off my Stage engine. They had taken a beating and still looked perfect. Great Gasket! I will have to use them again.
This is off the Dana site.

Solicor by Victor Reinz is also a proven performance cylinder head gasket. The technology that went into solicor performance cylinder head gasket. was initially for diesel application where 20 to 1 and greater compression ratio are necessary. This technology has been applied to the solicor performance cylinder head gasket product offering . Solicor performance cylinder head gasket are composed of a high- density, non-asbestos facing material laminated to a solid steel core. This core provides radial strength for a wire ring encased in the stainless steel combustion flange. Solicor performance cylinder head gaskets are coated with a unique fluorocarbon coating to ensure the microseal of fluids and to help resist the scrubbing of the cylinder head. Solicor by Victor Reinz is designed with the combustion seal in mind. For those application where 12 to 1 or greater compression ratios are prevalent and for turbo-charged, super-charged, and nitrous oxide engine, Solicor performance cylinder head gasket are the gaskets that will perform for you.

http://www.engineparts.com/products/ghiperf.htm

Link broken???

[GN1]

Link works fine for me. It is on the Dana site under Clevite engine parts.
These are expensive and available at Carquest. It is great gasket that only a few people seem to know about. The wire inside the fire ring, I believe is key.
Never a water leak installed dry.

[Intercooler]

You probably saw my post of the teardown to get the steels out. I am going back in with Cometics too. The only other gasket I had good luck with was the 1007 Loc-Wires but some people don't like those. My fingers are crossed that the Cometics will hold up!

[Otto J]

I run the cometics, Never had a leak on the 2 sets ive used(2 different motors)
I do spray the m with 2 good coats of the permatex spray copper sealer

[1badTTA]

I run the cometics, Never had a leak on the 2 sets ive used(2 different motors)
I do spray the m with 2 good coats of the permatex spray copper sealer
Good info Otto, I am running the double steel's with silicone and have had one leak so far and will probably run cometics next time (really thick ones) and try to bring my compression back down.

[Intercooler]

I think mine are .045". I plan on running them dry like they suggest and drop a couple of of seal tabs in the radiator. Hopefully these will be better than the steel shims so I can make some runs. Not having to retorque is nice too!