View Full Version : Thinking outside the box.
We all know how much bullshit everyone's gone through to put a 87 intake or a 87 "style" intake on a hotair with the turbo mounted in the same place.
But no one's ever tried this as far as i know.
Why dont we just get a stock 87 ps header, cut it, extend it a little bit so the turbo clears the alternator (no bitching about ac, who has AC anyway?) and bingo. You would probably need to clearance the ac/alt bracket a little, but it shouldnt be a big deal.
use an 87 intake, whatever the hell you want. the turbo is now out of the way.
So who has considered this? Anyone?
84T-typeMike
07-13-2005, 05:26 AM
My thoughts exactly!I have been looking for just a 86/87 P/S manifold for this reason.I was going to do a mock up since I have all the parts needed for a 2nd hot air motor.Would need electric fans for sure.My thinking was leave the Throttle Body where it is now,to avoid all the re-routing of cables.I am a machinist and was going to fab up an adapter for the exit to the TB and then plumb in the turbo to the inlet of the TB.That would eliminate the idle problems since the TB is still close to the intake. When I do this I was going to put in an intercooler like stock 86/87 cars.Good luck!I believe this is do-able according to my Eyecrometer. :SHOCKED:
highboost
07-14-2005, 10:54 PM
what gain would you get for all the work you just did to move the turbo then just pipe it back in to the same inefficient intake set up the hotair cars have?
thats why i did the js manufactuing style conversion to my car,the intake is now as efficient as a 86-87 intake and i can retain my stock turbo location.
:marchmell
what gain would you get for all the work you just did to move the turbo then just pipe it back in to the same inefficient intake set up the hotair cars have?
thats why i did the js manufactuing style conversion to my car,the intake is now as efficient as a 86-87 intake and i can retain my stock turbo location.
:marchmell
did you read what i said? first post:
use an 87 intake, whatever the hell you want. the turbo is now out of the way.
the point is, modifying a header is a billion times easier than ****ing with all that intake crap.
modify the header, move the turbo, and you can use a stock IC intake, tb, doghouse, power plate, etc.
highboost
07-15-2005, 07:33 AM
i was commenting on what 84ttypemike said about using the stock intake.
if using a 87 intake it would be a worthwile gain,but not with a stocker they just dont flow worth a crap.
i was commenting on what 84ttypemike said about using the stock intake.
if using a 87 intake it would be a worthwile gain,but not with a stocker they just dont flow worth a crap.
alright, didnt know who you were talking to since you didnt quote anyone ;)
Jerryl
07-19-2005, 06:57 PM
Folks,
Excuse my ignorance on this subject ……….. but since we are talking outside of the box .....
I remember reading somewhere that a ported hot air intake flows much better than a stock IC intake. Anyone remember? :fragez:
Having said that, I also realize the advantages of the turbo in the front, etc.
84T-typeMike
07-19-2005, 07:10 PM
I was after the the benefit of being able to choose any size turbo.There is only the TA33C from Limit as an upgrade that can be bolted right on.Besides,what it won't flow I'll try to make up with PUSH!LOL!
Folks,
Excuse my ignorance on this subject ……….. but since we are talking outside of the box .....
I remember reading somewhere that a ported hot air intake flows much better than a stock IC intake. Anyone remember? :fragez:
Having said that, I also realize the advantages of the turbo in the front, etc.
dont remember.. but the 87 intake + a power plate would be perfect. not to mention you could have a header modified by anyone competent at welding a header. hell if you know how to weld you could PROBABLY do it yourself with a little planning and practice.
an angle grinder and a welder and some tubing.
much easier than milling out an intake.
but like i said... just an idea
Jerryl
07-20-2005, 05:11 PM
dont remember.. but the 87 intake + a power plate would be perfect. not to mention you could have a header modified by anyone competent at welding a header. hell if you know how to weld you could PROBABLY do it yourself with a little planning and practice.
an angle grinder and a welder and some tubing.
much easier than milling out an intake.
but like i said... just an idea
Nick,
I belief this is a GREAT idea! :biggthump
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" right?
I had thoughts about this same issue but I like my AC!
Too hot out here in the summer.
Besides, I am working on a restoration.
This is the exact reason the system works.
Someone has an idea or a problem, and others can give some pro’s and con’s, ideas, or experiences.
Now, one does not need to learn everything alone, the hard way. Information sharing is what keeps us all alive!
racemybuick
07-25-2005, 11:13 PM
for all the modding, and all the buying of the intake and turbo, and so on, you can just buy any turbo your car can take (flow), and re-clock your compressor housing, and mill up a throttlebody adapter for the turbo, add a little alky, and boom....IC speed, full of hot air...
Save the cash for having to buy an IC intake and sink it into the porting of the hot air intake....
That's what I am doing....I am shooting for low 11's ideally....We'll have to see what happens!
John :thrashi:
Save the cash for having to buy an IC intake and sink it into the porting of the hot air intake....
an ic intake = $150 or less
how much are ported hotair intakes running?
its not even comparable.
1QUICK85
07-30-2005, 09:56 PM
Now this is a good thread. I would like to move the turbo just for the fact that it would be easier to work on, but don't think I could part with my A/C. Its just nice to have.
I had a thought some time ago about using a 86/87 valve cover on the passenger side with the hole on the end of it for the turbo oil return line. It would be easier then drilling a hole in the block. Anybody see a problem with this?
Nick
Jerryl
07-31-2005, 10:02 AM
I am no expert but don't see how this could be a problem.
The IC cars had the second breather installed to ensure better evacuation of the vapors and crank case gasses in the passenger side valve cover, including, pressure reduction insurance.
Having said that, the HA cars were designed with only one breather and it worked fine.
Even in higher boost applications it seems to work well.
IMHO, the evacuation with one breather, although not as efficient, should not pose any major issues.
Now this is a good thread. I would like to move the turbo just for the fact that it would be easier to work on, but don't think I could part with my A/C. Its just nice to have.
I had a thought some time ago about using a 86/87 valve cover on the passenger side with the hole on the end of it for the turbo oil return line. It would be easier then drilling a hole in the block. Anybody see a problem with this?
Nick
sounds good in theory. i have a 109 block so its not a problem for me.
only thing is, i dont know the volume that feed line flows so i dont know if the flow rate would exceed the draining capabilities of the head.....
i REALLY doubt thats possible, but i would hate to say "go for it" and be wrong.
Jerryl
07-31-2005, 10:37 AM
Nick,
Don’t see why this would be an issue.
The increased oil under the valve cover can not be more than 15% (WAG) of the total already going through.
If you are seriously concerned, you may want to;
1. Add a “carefully bent return tube” of equal or larger diameter of the feed line under the valve cover
2. That clears the rockers and valves
3. That goes through a grommet of some kind in the valve cover
4. And discharges over, or, in the area of a drain hole.
If you decide to try this and need a piece of SS tubing, let me know and I’ll send you a piece.
Any reason (Clearance??) why you do not want to use the return on the 109?
junkbrick
08-10-2005, 08:28 PM
A few years back my buddy Scott P. (STP over here in Buick forum land) and I had similar setups on our cars...his 85 T and my 87 GN. We were both running same cams (218 Duttweiler)...009 injectors, custom front Mount IC's (I know this is the HOT AIR tech, but this gets good) tranny & converter, 60-1 compressor, P-trim turbine (T-62) turbos and just about everything else was real similar on our setups, just mine was the "87" and it "should" do everything better...I cant count the times that Scott's '85 was out-running me at the track. We always wondered what was going on inside that crazy intake (I believe it was Lee Thompson told Scott once that the intake had a short runner that was 7 or so inches long, and the long runner was almost 20" long??? or longer). Crazy.
Both cars were fast at the time...Scott's 85 going somewhere in the 11.20's if my memory is correct. Riding in his car I will tell you the butt dyno really favored the early intake...especially in the midrange. To this day I still think about getting my hands on an 84-85...just because it was so cool to see his "slow" car hauling ass.
Plus, its all about being different! Right? :rock:
Later,
Reed
Any reason (Clearance??) why you do not want to use the return on the 109?
i was generally speaking for the other hotair guys without a 109.... i would probably be able to use it.
HOTSIX
08-23-2005, 01:50 AM
Okay so more on 'thinking outside of the box'.
I bought a JS Intake and IC kit - and am installing it right now. In fact I am a few steps away from finish - unless I run into some unforeseen problem it shud be running within a week.
I really like the idea of modding an 87 PS header...but what else would be req'd there to mount the turbo...where does the 87 turbo mount to exactly ?
You could figure that part out - maybe even have it in the exact same spot as an 87. You could buy a 3" THDP for it. Cool.
Not too tough to find a good welder to do it....
But what else is req'd here...someone else MUST have thot of this before hogging out an 84 85 intake....right ? As far as cables go - its easy - buy an 87 TB cable and bracket for the 87 doghouse...TV cable is long enuf already as it is. Not much hassle there. I did it to my setup for the JS intake.
Only hassle - thermostat housing. Its too tall for the 87 TB w/ IAC on it. Thats why JS provided a 'remote mount' kit. Theres only 1 1/4" of clearance under there for that housing. I prefer to keep my IAC right where it is and chop the top of the housing off of my thermostat. Its currently being welded up at the shop - get it back tomorrow. Ill find out if its now too small and doesnt flow enuf coolant. I'd prefer to have an 87 intake on there then I would'nt have had this issue.
Usually if you come up with a good idea - chances are someone else already thot of it. How bout some underhood pics of the 87 in the turbo area..... lets see if this is doeable... :rock:
HOTSIX
08-27-2005, 02:23 PM
Anyone ???
junkbrick
08-28-2005, 03:19 PM
Anyone ???
Some small issues, Oil return line from turbo will have to be put into the block or timing cover...alternator will need to be relocated, pretty sure over to the drivers side where the coil pack is now.
I am not familiar with the JS intake, but sounds like you have all of that worked out with the thermostat and throttle stuff.
I will search for the JS intake pics, but you can find pics of the 86-7 engines all over the place to give you an idea how the turbo sits.
Good luck,
Reed
HOTSIX
08-29-2005, 01:23 AM
Pics of the JS Intake will be located here:
www.jsmanufacturing.com
It will be on the RT side of the gallery page under Buick Wh1.
junkbrick
08-29-2005, 07:27 AM
Using the JS intake and partial plumbing would be a decent start...using the 86-7 header is going to be a nitemare, AC, Alt, oil line....anybody with any skill can build you a 3" downpipe for the stock location turbo...yes it is a little harder to work on, but it really has no major advantage other than a few bolt on parts...IMO. Is the JS intake mod priced reasonalble? just curious.
There are other ways to go about this...let me see if I can dig up some pics tonite.
--reed
Some small issues, Oil return line from turbo will have to be put into the block or timing cover...alternator will need to be relocated, pretty sure over to the drivers side where the coil pack is now.
I am not familiar with the JS intake, but sounds like you have all of that worked out with the thermostat and throttle stuff.
I will search for the JS intake pics, but you can find pics of the 86-7 engines all over the place to give you an idea how the turbo sits.
Good luck,
Reed
why would you have to move the alternator? look how much room there is dude... it would NOT be an issue.
http://turbosix.net/galleries/headgasket/images/headgasket%20111.jpg
if i can stand in my engine bay then i think a turbo would fit.. look at the gap where the ac bracket is... header would fit right through that.
shit you could even do this with a custom up pipe now that i look at it
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