I cant figure this out for the life of me, Need help!

[Gnfanatic]

where do I start? about 8 months ago I went to eric rankins dyno day. I jsut put in a atr roller kit ni the car. Car made 459 rwhp at 23 psi. I was very happy, car ran awesome. 2 months later I am driving on the highway and the car made a massive backfire and shut off. I pulled off and checked somethings out, took the cap off the cam sensor and saw the screw in the middle of the reluctur ring gotten loose! I finally got it hone and replaced the cam sensor body with another one. Well, the car ran extremely rich and rough idle. I must of checked to see if it was out 180 15 times. So I thought it was the headgaskets. I put new ones in finally (cometics), got a good deal on a ME-R and slapped that in. Well, same freaking problem! , it is running so rich there is gas in my oil, I cant drive the freaking car! SO this is whats going on:
I dont have a maf (ME-R)
The plugs become black in minutes
got no vaccuum leak that I can find
the cam sensor has the ORIG cap
new ecm,checked grounds,volts 14.1
I cannot lower the iac points.
scanmaster says:
iac-70-80
af-08
l8-50
int-03
bl-03
NOW. IS it possible my double timing chain skiped a bunch of teeth?? ATR says to put tensioner but I didnt.
COuld the cap of the cam sensor be bad?
I dont know what to do. I would appreciate any help :albert:

[Gnfanatic]

BY the way my fp is at 42 with vaccuum off and tps is at .42


thankjs guys

[turbojimmy]

BY the way my fp is at 42 with vaccuum off and tps is at .42


thankjs guys

My car behaved that way when my coil pack was bad. Middle pair of cylinders was firing weak and intermittently. Not quite bad enough to cause an obvious miss, but it was running stupid rich. After paying a local guy $500 to not fix it, I brought it to Mr. Jim Testa. He listened to it and within a minute or two he said "coil pack". Put a coil pack tester on it and there it was plain as day. That rich condition had been haunting me for almost a year.

Good luck!

Jim

[Gnfanatic]

My car behaved that way when my coil pack was bad. Middle pair of cylinders was firing weak and intermittently. Not quite bad enough to cause an obvious miss, but it was running stupid rich. After paying a local guy $500 to not fix it, I brought it to Mr. Jim Testa. He listened to it and within a minute or two he said "coil pack". Put a coil pack tester on it and there it was plain as day. That rich condition had been haunting me for almost a year.

Good luck!

Jim
BUt all my plugs are the same. All exactly black.

thanks

[mgmshar]

A couple of random thoughts. If all of your plugs are showing a rich condition, then something is wrong with a sensor (or something else) that affects the entire system, not just one or two cylinders. Because of this, I would rule-out the coil pack (usually only one coil goes bad, causing problems in two cylinders). Your fuel pressure seems to be in the right ball park, so I guess I would rule-out the FPR. Since all of your plugs are showing black, I would rule-out a stuck fuel injector.

1. Did the backfire damage the MAF? Maybe swap-out the MAF with a known good one.
2. Same as above, except for the O2 sensor.
3. Did you change the chip anywhere during this? At one time in my past, I screwed-up a chip that I burned, and symptoms were pretty much the same. Car would start, then black smoke would shoot out of the exhaust, the plugs got fouled, etc.
4. Did the backfire cause an exhaust leak? A bad exhaust leak can cause your O2 sensor to get exposed to oxygen from the outside air - thus it reads lean, and the ECU adds more fuel to compensate.

Good Luck!

[turbojimmy]

BUt all my plugs are the same. All exactly black.

thanks

So were mine. There's only one oxygen sensor so the adjustments that are made are applied to all cylinders. I replaced EVERYTHING before Testa found the bad coil pack. As a result, I have a lot of good spares laying around. TPS, IAC, MAF, O2 sensor, etc. if you want to borrow them to swap.

Jim

[Gnfanatic]

So were mine. There's only one oxygen sensor so the adjustments that are made are applied to all cylinders. I replaced EVERYTHING before Testa found the bad coil pack. As a result, I have a lot of good spares laying around. TPS, IAC, MAF, O2 sensor, etc. if you want to borrow them to swap.

Jim


Thanks for the offer Jim. I have a spare ign/coil in the garage that I think is good. I am going to try that today. I never heard of all the plugs not getting the right spark from a coil pack but I guess you never know. MGMSHAR. I dont use a maf or a o2 sesnor with this setup. I changed chips,ecm during this time. same crapola. I just cant see me putting in the cam sensor wrong 15 times in a row. I even took the driver side valve cover off to make sure both rocker arms on #1 were up so I knew I was on the compression side..

thanks
Ralph

[HairDrier]

scanmaster says:
iac-70-80
af-08
l8-50
int-03
bl-03
NOW. IS it possible my double timing chain skiped a bunch of teeth?? ATR says to put tensioner but I didnt.
COuld the cap of the cam sensor be bad?
I dont know what to do. I would appreciate any help :albert:

You need new readings on the BLM and INT. 03 is not possible. They should be between 90 and 150, with 90 being super rich and 150 being super lean.

Have you checked for a pre turbo exhaust leak? That would make you very rich.

I take it when you changed the head gasket they were not blown right?

As far as the IAC, which way are you turning it to lower the numbers? Screw it in to lower the count. If this does not lower them you probably have a bad IAC motor.

I doubt a bad O2 would make it this rich without throwing a code, and the O2 does not even come into play until you go into closed loop.

Look into those INT and BLM numbers, because those are not right

[HairDrier]

How did you set your cam sensor? Do you have a Caspers cam sensor tool?

[Gnfanatic]

Hairdryer. I use the caspers tool. I make sure both rockers are up on number 1 cylinder to make sure it is on compression side, then 25 aftdc. I dont have an o2 sensor. I tighten the iac screw clockwise, didnt do crap. I left the motor running while I was doing this, unless I need to restart it?? Those are the numbers scanmaster is giving me. My tlink does not work anymore, cant find ecm. I heard people have had problems with the scanmaster and tlink connected at the sametime. Am I installing this cam sensor right?? I know how to use the tool, I jsut want to make sure I am doing it right to make sure I am on the compression side.

thanks
Ralph

[Gnfanatic]

ok guys. I tested the coil pack with my voltmeter. 11k for each tower. I do have a 1/4 hole right below the turbo. My egt probe goes in there but it broke so I didnt put it in yet. So yes I have a leak, you think this hole is causing this much of a problem??
thanks
Ralph

[HairDrier]

ok guys. I tested the coil pack with my voltmeter. 11k for each tower. I do have a 1/4 hole right below the turbo. My egt probe goes in there but it broke so I didnt put it in yet. So yes I have a leak, you think this hole is causing this much of a problem??
thanks
Ralph

No, only pre turbo leaks. Look for cracks in the headers, leaks in the crossover, leaks where the headers go into the turbo, etc.

[HairDrier]

Hairdryer. I use the caspers tool. I make sure both rockers are up on number 1 cylinder to make sure it is on compression side, then 25 aftdc. I dont have an o2 sensor. I tighten the iac screw clockwise, didnt do crap. I left the motor running while I was doing this, unless I need to restart it?? Those are the numbers scanmaster is giving me. My tlink does not work anymore, cant find ecm. I heard people have had problems with the scanmaster and tlink connected at the sametime. Am I installing this cam sensor right?? I know how to use the tool, I jsut want to make sure I am doing it right to make sure I am on the compression side.

thanks
Ralph

I think you should contact Steve Yaklin and talk to him about your ME-R and Scanmaster readings. In park at operating temp you should have BLM and INT readings as I described above. If not you have either a bad ECM, bad ECM connection, or a problem with your ME-R. Where did you get the "new" ECM you put in?

It sounds like you set the cam sensor correctly. I am not familiar with the ME-R so I cant comment on it, thats why you should talk to Steve.

I would replace the IAC sensor since it will not move, and then reset your IAC and TPS as described at gnttype.org.

[turbojimmy]

I never heard of all the plugs not getting the right spark from a coil pack but I guess you never know.
thanks
Ralph

I hadn't either. I didn't have a miss so ignition was the farthest thing from my mind. I had already replaced the plugs, wires, MAF, injectors, TPS, IAC, ECM, chip and O2 sensor. We put one of those testers that snaps on top of the coil pack. Turn the knob and it simulates a load at various RPMs. You could see that the middle coil sparks were less blue (weaker) than the others and at times wouldn't fire at all.

Jim

[tazinhawaii]

ok guys. I tested the coil pack with my voltmeter. 11k for each tower. I do have a 1/4 hole right below the turbo. My egt probe goes in there but it broke so I didnt put it in yet. So yes I have a leak, you think this hole is causing this much of a problem??
thanks
Ralph

This sounds like a definite problem. By right below the turbo I assume you mean down in the O2 sensor area PRIOR to the turbo. But then again since you don't have an O2 sensor, I guess it really doesn't matter much. :gruebel:

Also, did you measure the primary sides of the coil pack? I've had coil packs go bad on the primary side too. I know what it's like to try and find these damn problems. But eventually you'll find it and everything becomes clear as to how the problem occurred..

Derrick

[Gnfanatic]

Thanks for the updates guys. I will talk to Steve. I bought them ME-R from my friend which kicked ass in his car. The reason I am not judging the me-r is because I have the same freaking problem I had since that backfire. So I do have a leak considering the 1/4 in hole is prior to the turbo. I dont have any other leaks. These headers were off the car during the head gasket change and were thouroughly checked(they are ss to). It has to be a sensor or an elec glitch. I tried 2 diff ecms.2 diff me chips, no maf,no o2, new inj's, changed cam sesnor EXCEPT the cap. The cam sensor isnt new but has very little play in it. I took it apart and looked at the pin on the gear shaft and the little nipple under the reluctor ring. What I have not done is checked my timing chain to see if it skipped and changed the cap. The iac motor is 1 year old, I guess it is bad if I cant lower the counts. OH BY THE WAY I could never lower the counts ever since the backfire!!

thanks
Ralph

p.s the 3 fuseable links on the starter (or 2) , if they were bad werent certain things not work? My fan works,interior lights, etc etc.

[HairDrier]

Fix the exhaust leak first, so you can rule that out as a possible problem. That will definitely make the car run rich.

Does the ME-R get rid of the O2 sensor? I dont understand why you would run without one. The O2 input controls how rich or lean the engine runs.

Maybe the backfire damaged the IAC motor I dont know, but it definitely does not appear to be functioning, further causing the car to run rough.

I would fix these two things you know are bad and go from there. You can pull the timing cover and check to make sure the gears have not jumped. It would be a good time to put a new timing chain on if you have not done so.

[jastrckl]

the exhaust leak won't affect an ME-R. It works purely open-loop off of a MAP sensor, no MAF or o2 sensors involved. ralph, you set the IAC with the motor -running-? I made that oops once, car belched black smoke. You set it with the switch on, engine OFF. BTW, BLMs and stuff are -gone- with the ME-R, so all of the entries in the BLM table mean totally different things. They are settings for turbo spool, WOT fueling, cold start fuel, idle fueling, etc etc instead, and will have crazy values like turbo spool is from 4-7 IIRC. Ralph I recommend you go over IAC reset procedure on gnttype and then work from there. Seems like your IAC motor is adjusted way out of whack and causing big problems.

[HairDrier]

the exhaust leak won't affect an ME-R. It works purely open-loop off of a MAP sensor, no MAF or o2 sensors involved. ralph, you set the IAC with the motor -running-? I made that oops once, car belched black smoke. You set it with the switch on, engine OFF. BTW, BLMs and stuff are -gone- with the ME-R, so all of the entries in the BLM table mean totally different things. They are settings for turbo spool, WOT fueling, cold start fuel, idle fueling, etc etc instead, and will have crazy values like turbo spool is from 4-7 IIRC. Ralph I recommend you go over IAC reset procedure on gnttype and then work from there. Seems like your IAC motor is adjusted way out of whack and causing big problems.

Thanks for the info jastrckl, things make a lot more sense now. You still want to fix the exhaust leak because any one before the turbo robs power.

[Scott Atk]

Put your thumbwheel in Pos. 0. Turn the key on but do not start it. Turn the key back off and put the thumwheel back to your desired setting. Now, start the car as usual and report back.

[Gnfanatic]

Hey SCott, I already did that. but I did it a tad diff.I turned ign on with tw on 0. Then I waited for 10 seconds and put the tw to 2 with ign still on and I started car. I didnt know I had to turn of the ign and then back on. I obviously I did it wrong, you think it didnt rebuild the cells??


thankjs
Ralph

[GNXS]

It sounds to me like you jumped time.
Since timing is controlled by the chip, it dosent sound like its a prob w/ MER.
Your injectors are timed by the position of the cam sensor in relation to the timing gears so if you jumped a tooth or two then your injectors will be firing to soon causing a rich condition.
just my o2's worth i could be wrong. :rock:

[BEATBY6]

Is your MAP sensor good??

[Gnfanatic]

How do you test your map sensor. it is a 3 bar unit.

thanks
Ralph

[Gnfanatic]

UPDATE: hey guys I redid the cam sensor, replaced the capo with another laying around. It seened to make the car idle better. I got the iac down to 00-03 with tps at .42. I am playing with the ME, blms. I put the blms down to 16 in pos 0. car is much more crisper in response and the plugs are a lighter black not charcoal black. I am emailed steve to see if I can go lower on idle fuiel. my fp is 42 with vac off..

what ya thiunk
thanks
Ralph

[jastrckl]

position zero is idle fuel, and has a range from 0-48. http://www.turbobuicks.com/members/scottiegnz/ME-R4DS.jpg may help, it's set up to display the way DS displays BLM's but it should give you the general idea. When I get home I'll mail you some ME-R manuals if I can find them.
-Josh

[HairDrier]

UPDATE: hey guys I redid the cam sensor, replaced the capo with another laying around. It seened to make the car idle better. I got the iac down to 00-03 with tps at .42. I am playing with the ME, blms. I put the blms down to 16 in pos 0. car is much more crisper in response and the plugs are a lighter black not charcoal black. I am emailed steve to see if I can go lower on idle fuiel. my fp is 42 with vac off..

what ya thiunk
thanks
Ralph

You really dont want the IAC at zero because when it hits zero it has no more ability to control the idle. It will run okay there but it may idle better at about 15-20 where the computer will have more control. At least you are way better off than when you started

[Chuck]

UPDATE: hey guys I redid the cam sensor, replaced the capo with another laying around. It seened to make the car idle better. I got the iac down to 00-03 with tps at .42. I am playing with the ME, blms. I put the blms down to 16 in pos 0. car is much more crisper in response and the plugs are a lighter black not charcoal black. I am emailed steve to see if I can go lower on idle fuiel. my fp is 42 with vac off..

what ya thiunk
thanks
Ralph

Hmmmnn?? You should have your :asskickin :zahn:
Could this possibly be a "I told you so" deal??? :)
Now all you have left to do is find the noise in the ft of the engine....

[Gnfanatic]

Chuck, when I redid the cam sensor it didnt make a difference. When I put a new cam sensor cap on the engine idlled a little better. But thnings chnaged when I fixed the iac and adjusted the idle fuel curve. Steve told me it should be wround 24, mine is at 15. I hope I am not band aiding a problem. I am going to put in new plugs in tomorrow. Does anyone know how I can test the 3 bar map to make sure it works?? I have a scanmaster and a tlink.

thanks
Ralph

[1badTTA]

Chuck, when I redid the cam sensor it didnt make a difference. When I put a new cam sensor cap on the engine idlled a little better. But thnings chnaged when I fixed the iac and adjusted the idle fuel curve. Steve told me it should be wround 24, mine is at 15. I hope I am not band aiding a problem. I am going to put in new plugs in tomorrow. Does anyone know how I can test the 3 bar map to make sure it works?? I have a scanmaster and a tlink.

thanks
Ralph
I would assume that since a 3bar MAP reads from 0-5vdc and 29in/hg (0psi) to 29.4psi and atmospheric is about 14.7psi (0 vacuum) then it should read 1.667v with no pressure/vacuum, 3.333v with 14.7psi, 5v with 29.4psi and should be linear throughout the range.

Use a mighty vac and a boost gauge to show pressure and a voltmeter to show volts.


If I am incorrect or backwards then anyone is free to correct me.

[jastrckl]

here's a chart w/ the voltages mapped to boost for 3 bar sensors.
http://www.turbobuicks.com/members/scottiegnz/BoostCheatSheet.jpg

[1badTTA]

here's a chart w/ the voltages mapped to boost for 3 bar sensors.
http://www.turbobuicks.com/members/scottiegnz/BoostCheatSheet.jpg
OK, quick question on that chart. Does the 4D equate to what would be shown on Direct Scan with the MAP sensor plugged into the MAT plug (basically a T-Link harness but running DS) :fragez: Basically are the numbers shown supposed to be temps :fragez:

[mgmshar]

I recently calibrated my new 3-bar MAP sensor using DirectScan (DS), a digital multi-meter, a liquid-filled pressure gauge, and the vacuum gauge from my mity-vac unit. My results showed that the calibration is NOT linear. Hopefully the image below will make sense...

[Gnfanatic]

Great info guys, but which wires do I probe with the voltmeter?? Ibadtta, your saying I should get voltage with no vaccuum to it?? if the car is idling can I check it as well?? Thanks for the help guys. I would like to try this tomorrow.

[mgmshar]

Great info guys, but which wires do I probe with the voltmeter?? Ibadtta, your saying I should get voltage with no vaccuum to it?? if the car is idling can I check it as well?? Thanks for the help guys. I would like to try this tomorrow.
Can't remember for sure. Just turn the key on, but don't start the car. Probe between the various wires at the MAP sensor connection until you find the two that show 1.66 volts between them. The MAP sensor signal should be around 1.66 volts at 0 boost (in other words, with the key on but engine off).

[Gnfanatic]

Can't remember for sure. Just turn the key on, but don't start the car. Probe between the various wires at the MAP sensor connection until you find the two that show 1.66 volts between them. The MAP sensor signal should be around 1.66 volts at 0 boost (in other words, with the key on but engine off).

ok,sounds good. Steve asked me to check to see if it was working. I am going to double check the wires going to the ecm as well.

thanks guys,
Ralph

jastrckl. message me on Mirc

[jastrckl]

1badtta: 4d is a memory address that DS would be reading, and you have to have the modded ecm (for ME-R use) to make reading the 4D position mean anything. In other words, the ME-R uses position 4D to read the MAP values. Sorry I'm not making sense, I have a cold.

[Gnfanatic]

Alright guys. this is the scoop. I put new plugs in and changed the oil. The plugs are black again. :albert: .. This is starting to piss me off. I checked vacuum car idling, it is 15 in. I checked the voltage on the map sensor, it is 5 volts with ign on, and 5 volts car idling. I dont think that tlls me crap besides the ecm giveing it voltage. Doesnt tell me if the map is bad. I double checked the map wires, they are good. Something is dumping fuel in this motor. I also here a rattle noise in the front of the motor. I wonder if thats the chain slapping around. Iac is still good,tps is still good.

:banghead:

[mgmshar]

Alright guys. this is the scoop. I put new plugs in and changed the oil. The plugs are black again. :albert: .. This is starting to piss me off. I checked vacuum car idling, it is 15 in. I checked the voltage on the map sensor, it is 5 volts with ign on, and 5 volts car idling. I dont think that tlls me crap besides the ecm giveing it voltage. Doesnt tell me if the map is bad. I double checked the map wires, they are good. Something is dumping fuel in this motor. I also here a rattle noise in the front of the motor. I wonder if thats the chain slapping around. Iac is still good,tps is still good.

:banghead:
Hold on a second here. Are you sure that you're checking the correct wires on the MAP sensor??? You should NOT be getting 5 volts at either idle or with the engine off! If you are, then that's your problem.

There are three wires going to the MAP sensor. One of the wires is sensor ground, and it's probably black. The second wire is the 5-volt sensor feed (not sure what color). When you measure the voltage between that wire and the sensor ground wire, it should always be 5.0 volts (as long as the key is on). The third wire is the MAP sensor signal wire. That's the wire that goes back to the ECM and feeds it the MAP signal. When you measure the voltage between that wire and the sensor ground wire, you will get a number somewhere between 0 and 5 volts, depending on what the MAP reading is. At zero boost (key on, engine off), it should be around 1.6 volts.

Check it again. Just to be clear, you will need to probe the pins on the MAP sensor connector WHILE THE MAP SENSOR IS PLUGGED IN. You will probably need to paritally disassemble the connector on the wiring harness to do this. Take the connector apart, and then plug it back into the MAP sensor. Turn the key on. Probe the outside two wires, the left two wires, and the right two wires at the disassembled connector. One of those pairs should give you about 1.6 volts - that's the pair that is the sensor ground and the MAP sensor signal wire. Once you find that pair, start the car and probe that pair again. When you do, the voltage should drop. At 15" Hg vacuum, the voltage should be about 0.7 volts.

Good Luck

[1badTTA]

One other thing, there are 2 different arrangements of wires for 3bar MAP sensors, Razor posted a thread on TB.com in the Alky section about it. If you are using an old 3bar MAP sensor with the ME-R and it is designed for the newer wiring then that could be your problem as the MAP won't be sending a correct signal. You are going to have to find out which MAP sensor you are supposed to have and then test to see if yours is working correctly wired the way it is. Here is the link http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=96951

[Gnfanatic]

God damn you are good. this is what I got iwht the harness connected.
IGN ON
green-1.6 volts
pink-5 volts.

IDLE
GREEn-.7 volts
PINK 5 volts



thanks man, I guess my map is good then.

Ralph

[Gnfanatic]

THanks tta, this map was used with this mer setup from my friend who sold it to me, he gave me everything ,map,ecm,harness,mer. So it is def the right one.

thanks
Ralph


Time to take timing cover off??

[jastrckl]

have you tried checking ignition to make sure you're setting off good spark? Normally the car pops and acts dumb with a bad module or coilpack but I guess a weak spark could be possible too. What are your gaps set at? maybe a slightly hotter plug is in order?

[Gnfanatic]

ngk ur5. all gapped at .035 as usual. got 11k on all towers, I know it isnt a perfect test. I am taking the timing cover off tonight.I have run out of ideads except the timing chain. I will let you guys know
thanks
Ralph

[Gnfanatic]

ok guys. took timing cover off. Everything looks mint. I give up. Not sure what to do now. I also noticed the car built up alot of white stuff under the valve covers and breathers. Like condensation. I did a compression check, all cylinders are in the 140 range with motor cold. Rad never went down in fluid.

Thanks for all your help

Ralph

[mgmshar]

God damn you are good. this is what I got iwht the harness connected.
IGN ON
green-1.6 volts
pink-5 volts.

IDLE
GREEn-.7 volts
PINK 5 volts



thanks man, I guess my map is good then.

Ralph
Yep, sounds like your MAP sensor is working right.

This is getting more complicated than can be diagnosed over email. If you lived near Detroit, I'd offer to help. :nixweiss:

One other oddball thing to check...

A few months back, may car started doing some weird stuff on restarts. It was obvious that the IAC was not being properly controlled by the ECM during shutdown, which was causing it to run funky on re-starts. Long story short - the cause of the problem was some bent pins on the ECM's PROM socket. One of the pins on the PROM chip was not making contact with the socket in the ECM. Something to check, although I don't know how a backfire would cause this problem to spontaneously occur :fragez:

Most likely, something happened when the car popped, and you'll spend all of next year trying to figure it out :lickit:

Good Luck!

[Gnfanatic]

Thanks for the offer Mike. I cjecked the pins on the prom and calpak, all good. I jsut checked the woodruff key. took the cam sensor gear off. thats good to. gggrrrrrrrrrr . I really did enjoy the car when it ran good for that year. I am lsot here. I feel like I checked evrything except for a new coil/ign and new cam sensor.

thanks
Ralph

[1badTTA]

Almost sound like the easiest way to find this gremlin is to borrow another TR and start swapping parts untill you can get the gremlin to follow the part. If you have a friend with a TR try swapping parts to his car and see if they work or if his car runs like crap. Alot of times with things like this it is a combination of small problems that cause one big one. Since it all happened when it backfired (since it wasn't the timing chain it must have been ignition) check everything that could have been effected by the backfire. Did any vacuum/boost checkvalves get damaged? What about solenoids?
Just a shot in the dark but it should give you some direction since you have already checked the obvious.

[Gnfanatic]

thNks fo the post 1bad. I am going to buy new cam sensor. I dotn ahve any friends local with a gn. Plus I dont think they would mine me raping there car to tect mine out :) I am jsut pissed that the front timinbg cover is off. I am getting tired of this, so I will take a break for a couple of days. Quick question. I noticed some white stuff under my valve covers,oil breathers and some on the timing cover. it smell a little like fuel, you think I got that from the fuel mixing in with the gas? I didnt lose any water.

thanks
Ralph

[Gnfanatic]

hey guys, I appreiate the replys, Chuck I checked the woodruff key, it is on 1 piece. Bill, this happened before the map sensor and I pout a ne wone one. The coolant temos were going crazy was I thiunk a fluke with the scanmaster. When i restarted it didnt do it anymore. Now, let me think of something here.
my OLD intake was cut in order to fit my heads (they were milled severalk times). When I got the new intake I only cut it 20 thousandths. It felt like it sat goon on the engine. I used a 1200 gasket. is it possible that:
1-) it is leaking water
2-) the BOTTOM of the ports are leaking vaccuum causing a massive vac leak, the motor see's this and dumps fuel? I get 15in vac at idle though.

Bill,chuck,anyone is there a way to pressure test the intake while it is on the motor??? Can I also double up a 1200 gaskter??


thanks
Ralph

[mgmshar]

A lot of people already stole some of my thoughts...

1. I would definitely check-out that coolant temperature sensor - if it's reading too low, then the car will run rich.
2. Also re-check all of the vacuum lines and anything connected to them (EGR solenoid, one-way check valves, PCV, etc.). For reference, my car (stock cam) gets about 17" Hg of vacuum when warm and in Park, about 15" Hg when warm in Drive. If you're getting 15" when the car is warm and in drive, I doubt you have a large vacuum leak. Also, since you are running MAFLESS and O2-less, then a vacuum leak will be automatically and correctly compensated by the MAP reading and the chip. Unless the hose going to the MAP sensor itself or the vacuum block is split. :dong:
3. You can rent a coolant system pressure checker from many auto parts stores. I got mine from AutoZone. Actually, it was a tool loan, so it was free. Drain a little coolant out of the radiator, and attach the pressure checker. Pump up the cooling system to about 16psi, and watch the needle. If it goes down quickly, you have a cooling leak, possibly a head or intake gasket. If it goes down very, very slowly (or not at all), you're probably OK. I think on my car it took about 15-20 minutes for the gauge to drop from 16 to 12 psi, which I considered "normal". If it had dropped that fast in one minute, I would have been worried.
4. If you can get one to swap-out, I would try another coil pack and module. It's easy to swap-out with somebody for a quick check (three bolts, six plug wires, and a wiring connector), so it's quick and easy to rule out.

Again, good luck!

EDIT: Why is it that when I post lately, my post appears BEFORE other people that have already posted?

[Chuck]

thNks fo the post 1bad. I am going to buy new cam sensor. I dotn ahve any friends local with a gn. Plus I dont think they would mine me raping there car to tect mine out :) I am jsut pissed that the front timinbg cover is off. I am getting tired of this, so I will take a break for a couple of days. Quick question. I noticed some white stuff under my valve covers,oil breathers and some on the timing cover. it smell a little like fuel, you think I got that from the fuel mixing in with the gas? I didnt lose any water.

thanks
Ralph
I don't think gas in the oil will make a milkshake, but water sure will. Could be the frequent start/stop regimen while testing could be causing this.

One added thing to gheck:
As I recall, you said the backfire was big enuf to shoot flame out of the hood to where you could see it...
If that happened, the crank would take a big hit.!
I would check to see that the interrupter ring on the balancer did not slip when the crank was looking like a pretzel. You have the ft cover off, check the balancer w/ a known good one for correct phasing of the slots vs the keyway. :bawling:

[Gnfanatic]

mgmshar, this is weird. your post is before the older posts, got me confused for a sec there. I am going to rent that tool and see what happens. I get 15in vac in P at idle. I am going to try ign/coil and leak, then new cam sensor. If this doesnt fix it I am going to ahve to send it to someone. I never had to do this but I am starting to give up! Problem is I need to find someone who is famaliar with ME as well. I wonder if Bill Anderson does,. I can get my buddy tow my car to him. I am very anal, trust very few people with my car.

thanks
Ralph

[HairDrier]

Coolant temp sensor not reading correctly, thus the ECM thinks the engine is cold all time and is adding too much fuel? I dunno

[EightSecV6]

Coolant temp sensor not reading correctly, thus the ECM thinks the engine is cold all time and is adding too much fuel? I dunno


Are you sure the "backfire" didnt split the vacuum hose going to the MAP sensor?

[Gnfanatic]

Did anyone read my last post? It is on TOP of page 6. I typed out some stuff for chuck and Bill

thanks
Ralph

[nova II]

The backfire caused your problem,look at the map line, vacuum lines. If the backfire went through the intake might of blown off a line or ruined a sensor<map>

[TurboJim]

ok guys. took timing cover off. Everything looks mint. I give up. Not sure what to do now. I also noticed the car built up alot of white stuff under the valve covers and breathers. Like condensation. I did a compression check, all cylinders are in the 140 range with motor cold. Rad never went down in fluid.

Thanks for all your help

Ralph
You have a functioning PCV system in there? Or are you one of those guys thinks no PCV and 2 breathers is the ay? If so, thats why you got condensation building up there.

[TurboJim]

Ralph, I just dont understand why its so hard to pinpoint a rich running problem

1) Is the engine asking for it? 2) Is the ECM supplying it

If the engine is asking for it, LV8, cts, or SOMETHING would show it. If the ECM was supplying it, Pulse Width wouild show it. If it sees it and is trying to get RID of it (ie: low BLM's, or on the case of the ME, needing to dial an unusually low fuel setting, then maybe you got a leak into a vacuum hose (ie regulator) or some leaky injectors. If neither, then its coming somewhere. Could the backfire have ruptured the FPR diaphram and its spewing raw gas thru the vacuum line? What is the injector pulse width?

Dude, its a 4 cycle engine, not the space shuttle. You know its rich, stop throwing parts at it and find out WHY.

Do you have Direct Scan? Fire it up and record some data, send it to me for review.

[Gnfanatic]

Hey guys, thabks for the response. LEt me clarify some things here. The backfire happened about 6 months agoo. Since then I replaced the heads gaskets,intake gaskets,valve seals, vaccuum lines, new injectors and installed the me-r. So all vacuum lines are fine, map is tested good. Coil pack ohmed. I have a fp guage on the rail, it shows 40 psi vac off. Jim, I played with idle fuel. I lowered it until it almost stalled then added a few numbers to it. It helped but still fouling plugs. I have my pcv connected the red armstrong way. I never had a problem with this setup for over year until now. I am going to put the timing cover back on,redo cam sesnor and do a coolant pressure test. I have an extra coil/ign module I will try Jim I have tlink. if I record it can ya look at it? I believe you are famaliar with ME? So obviously certain things are diff.


thjanks

Ralph

[TurboJim]

I have my pcv connected the red armstrong way. I never had a problem with this setup for over year until now.
Excuse my ignorance, but what is the Red Armstrong way?