Age old "Which converter" question ...

[KenMosher]

LONG post follows:

Over the years I've torn up almost all of the restalled stock style converters (i.e. all the "stripe" colored types). The higher the base stall, the faster the clutch became dust, probably due to the increased shock to the clutch on a shift with it locked up.

My car has always had the best E.T.s with the TCC locked in second gear, which is probably indicative of the fact the restalled stockers are relatively inefficient and I really just needed the stall for the 60 ft. times. I finally dropped back to a reman'ed stocker that lasted for several seasons (to the tune of 1.5 short times) until it took out my thrust bearing (that's the current diagnosis anyway).

SO... motor is back together and before I can put it back in the car, I'm going to put in my spare transmission and a new converter.

I'm looking for some input ... car is full weight (3700 lbs) and previously has done low 11s @ 121+ with 21 psi boost. New head work and valves should allow it to dip into the tens (hopefully).

My three candidates are:

1. Vigilante 9.5" multidisc
Pros:

Looks to be a very stout converter
Several people have used it in their combo with success
Reputable Buick vendors to support it
Cons:

Several years ago (when it was first introduced for the Buicks) I witnessed several 10 second cars actually slow down when using it.
Some people have reported bad customer service when dealing with manufacturer on performance issues (not vendors)
I've driven a car with a 5 disc converter and was impressed with it, but when the car was idling the converter "ticked" like a bad lifter. It sounded like the discs were rattling. Since then I've heard others complain of the noise.
I'm afraid that they don't really hit their claimed efficiency levels until they are spun pretty hard. Not sure if they match up to a combo that needs 3000 stall and shifts in the 5500-5700 RPM range.
2. Yank Converter
Pros:

Looks to be a very stout converter
The F-body crowd seems to having excellent luck using this converter
Innovative clutch design (with what looks to be a fluid diode that increases clutch pressure as RPMs increase?)
Cons:

Some people have reported bad customer service when dealing with manufacturer on performance issues (not vendors)
Relatively unknown in BUick circles and I haven't found a lot of direct experience out there with it.
I'm afraid that it doesn't hit it's efficiency levels until higher RPMs.... same as with the Vigilante
3. 9-11 Style Converter
Pros:

Cheaper
Looks to be well behaved on the street
Been around for a long time in Buick circles
Reputable Buick vendors to support it
Cons:

There has been a lot of BS surrounding this converter, which I'm hoping is more revolving around Internet drama and insanity than any real issue with the converter itself
Not thrilled with some of changing warranty statements, exclusivity claims, and seeming attitude surrounding it
Again, several years ago I watched Mike Kurtz experiment with this style converter (I believe it was a K-B unit at the time) in his blue T, which was clicking off high 10s. It seemed to work for a couple passes and then acted like it drove through the clutch and slowed down. Locked up fine at part throttle and cruising, but WOT it definitely showed that the RPMs thru the traps were steadily climbing with each pass. I realize that improvements may have been made since then, but haven't heard any real data other than some discussions that seemed to indicate a problem with medication.
This style converter is explicitly slammed and berated here:
http://www.converter.com/whatsnew.htm

and I'm mindful of some other examples of converters I've seen through the years that echo some of the things found here:
http://www.converter.cc/the_truth.htm

It actually seems to make sense, if you weed out some of the propaganda. Like everything else though, I'm wary of the fact that if you are selling hammers, everything is going to look like a nail.
So, bottom line ... I'd like to buy this converter ONCE and not do someone else's R&D. I'd appreciate experiences and recommendations, however, remember the application ... this is the Recipe Car. Streetability is important. Reliability is important. If you are talking about a 13 second application, it probably isn't directly relevant.

Thanks!

[Taffy]

Sounds like the only bad thing about the 9x11 is the bickering on the internet.

I did not know about the bad customer service with the Yank though.

Another one that was not mentioned was the Neal Chance Converter. Not sure about his street converters, or if he even offers a street converter, but the race car guys seem to like it.

[Intercooler]

Have you looked at Pat's Converters yet? A search here or on Turbobuicks.Com will give you some feedback. I have one and love it! It is a 10" 3500 stall lock-up. He has a billet version too for about the same price as the 9/11 standard unit. Nothing but great service and feedback on them! I am using mine with a Stage-Right brake and love it. $450.00 for the standard 10". www.patsperformanceconverters.com

[KenMosher]

Sounds like the only bad thing about the 9x11 is the bickering on the internet.
Actually, if you follow the link, the claim is that there is a problem with the 9/11 design and the turbine "wash". I've never seen one that survives lockup at WOT personally, so I'm looking to hear from someone who has?

I am using mine with a Stage-Right brake and love it. $450.00 for the standard 10"
What kind of ETs on the Pat's unit? Locking it in 2nd? 60 fts?

As far as Neal Chance? I don't see a lock up in Neal Chance's offerings? Am I missing it?

[TurboJim]

Ken:

I went from a 3000 stall PI to a 3500 stall PI. Both single disk LU's. The 3000 never skipped a beat, despite I never locked it at WOT. They say that the single disk isnt strong enuf to take the abuse. I have heard otherwise, but choose not to take the chance. I loved that converter, with exception it was a tad too low on stall for my 61. Would have liked 3200 better.

As for the 3500, well, my combo has changed considerably. I think the only stock piece left is the block and rods. Car has the equipment to go mid 10's, but I got bugs to work out. Anyway, road manners are excellent, and the thing is loose enuf to stall my 63 immediately, but tight enuf to blow the tires away at 45 thru about 55 till I lost my nerve and let off. (Yea, road was cool, I got on it, only running 11-12psi right now tho)

Anyway, with my experience with the 3000, I am hooked on the PI units. I wont buy them from PI tho. The guy whom I spoke to there, I wont mention his name, seemed totally uninterested in selling me a anything, so I called up good ole Mike Licht and he hooked me up. I have heard stories, good and bad on the 9-11 converters, and when you look at them, they dont LOOK strong. I lost an engine to a balooned converter, so I aint about to skimp on that now to damage a motor that cost all of the spare coin I could scrounge.

I know nothing about yank and NC converters. The PATS look OK, but not much beefier than a DAACO. For a mid 11 sec car I'd have no problem using one, but 10's is another 100+hp and I'd want nothing but the best in there. I've seen pro-torques balooned and damaged behind 3.8's in Tauruses, so I wont go there....

I aint no gewrew, or high end racer, just some schmuck trying to make his turd run well. Take this all for what its worth.

[Intercooler]

Pat's Converters has balloon plates front, back and inside. Are you making over 750 HP? If not you will be fine with a standard. If you make more get the billet. I ran 11.40@117 with a 1.59 60' on 17 PSI at about 3725 lbs. I had a hurt head gasket so I couldn't run more. I also didn't have a lock-up so I don't have fact for you on that. I wouldn't put the Pat's 10" in the same sentence with a Daaco! Those are total garbage! Lots of people running the Pat's unit and not one bad press report. These guys supposedly make a stout piece too: http://www.dynamicconverters.com/


Ultimately it is your decision :arco:

[turbojimmy]

Like anything else, you probably get what you pay for. Even so, I went with the billet 9x11 TCS converter from CK. Cost was sort of a consideration, but there are also lots of people using this converter. There is a lot of drama on the 'net about it but after stepping out from behind the keyboard and talking to Chris at CK about it for a while I was sold. Maybe he's just a good salesman :) I was leaning toward a ProTorque but they don't have a 3500+ stall LU (glad I didn't after JT's post). I replaced a 3000 stall ProTorque with this converter. I have about 1,000 miles on it.

I only have about 10 passes on it so far, but I'm not making as much power as you are. I lock it at around 90 MPH WOT. The 3600 stall is great for my PT61 and it cruises around town no problem. At the track it seems to be pretty efficient. There's a post on TB.com about them right now - I put up some graphs. I don't know what numbers are "good", but my RPM drop between shifts and at lockup seem to indicate that it's not too loose. The 2 charts were like #3 and #7 of 7 consecutive runs that night so heat didn't seem to be affecting it either. I'd like to say the car 60's better, but it's breaking the Hoosiers loose anywhere from launch to 40+ MPH (you can see it in the one graph at around 40). I definitely have more power off the line now.

As far as the links you put up, there's some good "information" presented but both seem to be written by manufacturers of TCs knocking the competition under the guise of an informative article. The info may be grounded in fact, but I'd question the objectivity.

Good luck! Among the brands you mentioned, there may not be a "wrong" answer. Just a lot of opinions. People have had success with them all.

Jim

[TurboJim]

I was leaning toward a ProTorque but they don't have a 3500+ stall LU (glad I didn't after JT's post). I replaced a 3000 stall ProTorque with this converter. I have about 1,000 miles on it.

Jim
Ok, maybe I shouldnt have said it that way. I'm sure the HP Proturques are different than the ones we have used at work, but the ones we use at work have failed in different ways, with the most recent being a crack in the area the snout is welded to the body. I'm sure in HP applications, they do a better job of building them. I just dont know if I'd buy one.

FWIW, when I was speccing out my setup, and before I called Mike Licht, I was gonna buy a PATS converter, because the guy at PI was such a dick. But once I found Mike was a dealer, I stuck to the original plan.

[87LtdT]

I have heard often that the 7 disk PI rattles at idle...

I have a 3000 rpm stall single disc lockup Yank. It's my 2nd. 1st was his early "more lockup with more torque" design that didn't work right. Have not locked it at track. Mike is kind of hard to contact but once you do you'll like him.

Bob

[Be4u]

Thanks for starting this thread Ken, I'll be looking for a converter in a couple of weeks.

[Intercooler]

Pictured in black is a 10" converter for a 400 that went to William in AZ for a MEAN setup! You can see the balloon plates in the front. On the table is pictured a billet 9/11 at Bill Anderson's shop that is for sale brand new... no wait.

:deal:

[Intercooler]

Forgot to mention the black unit is a Pat's converter :undwech:

[KendallF]

I and a couple of friends of mine have put the 9x11s in several cars locally; good results in every one so far. I was buying them from TCS directly before any of the net drama started, and I last bought one from them about 6 months ago. Rusty at TCS told me then that he was having trouble finding the cores for the lockup side so he'd tooled up and was making the billet ones now. This allowed him to make some improvements as well. I was paying around $425 for the old non-billet ones and I think I paid $525 for the billet one.

These are mostly 12 to 11 second cars; the first one I ever bought 4 or 5 years ago is still going strong in a local car that runs 7.30s in the 1/8th.

[EightSecV6]

The NEW TCS billet 9/11 can be locked up at WOT with no issues, it does not use the stock clutch lining like those from the old days. It is a type of carbon fiber based lining. We beat the heck out of them with real good results!

[Just a Six??]

I second the Pats Converters! Really Great Customer service all around. The 10" 3000 stall works great for me. At $400 its a steal!!

[KenMosher]

Does it have a Lock up? Is it a restalled stocker?

[Intercooler]

Does it have a Lock up? Is it a restalled stocker? You mean the Pat's 10"? It is a lock-up. Not the stock D-5.

[SHADOWII]

:tnpe: Thanks Ken, Now you have me questioning my purchase of an older 9/11 to link to a Chuck Dublick trans. behind a ( hopefully 10sec) build up.
Soooo, what did we conclude :fragez: :dong:
ANYBODY :fragez:
Thanks
Tom

[Intercooler]

Ken,

Did you decide yet? Did you give Steve Barr at Pat's a ring? He will break it down for ya!

[KenMosher]

The whole work thing has been cutting into my Buick time :zahn:

I'm still torn ... I'm leaning towards the Vigilante, just because it seems to have some pretty stout internals and I'm tired of tearing up transmissions. However, some pretty respected folks have chimed in for the 9/11 and it makes it harder!

I think clutch area is critical, since I am locking it in 2nd gear ... I worry a lot about the ability of a smaller clutch surface area (like a 10") to last unless there are multiple plates to spread the load.

Then again, maybe I'm just overthinking it ....

[TurboDonnie]

The whole work thing has been cutting into my Buick time :zahn:

I'm still torn ... I'm leaning towards the Vigilante, just because it seems to have some pretty stout internals and I'm tired of tearing up transmissions. However, some pretty respected folks have chimed in for the 9/11 and it makes it harder!

I think clutch area is critical, since I am locking it in 2nd gear ... I worry a lot about the ability of a smaller clutch surface area (like a 10") to last unless there are multiple plates to spread the load.

Then again, maybe I'm just overthinking it ....

Ken have you considered using a non-lock up? I have a PI Vigilante non-lock that I've had for almost 6 years and it's simply awesome. My car is @ 3750lbs with me in it and it 60's like a banshee. 1.551 is the best so far on a 112,000 mile bone stock suspension using 2 air bags. I would vote for a Vigilante be it lock up or non -lock, you would be happy with either.

[Intercooler]

Ken,


If you decide to go non-lock then the ATI unit is one of the best from what I hear. Bill Anderson has them spec'd out pretty good and can set you up for your combo.

[KenMosher]

I definitely want to stay with the lockup ...

The car already goes mid 1.5s easily with the stock reman D5 (until I killed it! ). Best of 1.51, but normally in the 1.55 - 1.57 range.

Stock suspension except for boxed arms, urethane bushings, and air bags. I'm thinking about some adjustable uppers, but will wait until it's all back together and sorted out.

I hope with the new converter (whichever I end up with) to be able to retain those 60fts and do repeat them more easily (less boost at the line) while not losing ET in the middle/top end of the track. It'd be awesome to pick up some even better 60fts, but I'd be happy with easier 1.5s (especially at altitude now).

[Intercooler]

Ken,

The billet converter by Pat's is a new piece. They don't have one in use yet. Since I have gotten a few converters from them I can get a deal on the billet piece. I would love to see you run it! I can order it in my name and ship it on to you if you would like to try it for the cost of the converter.

[KenMosher]

I really appreciate the offer ... however, I think I'll pass just because I don't have the time or inclination to test a new piece for someone. I'm sure it'll be fine, but I'm short on time with all the things going on right now (it might be easier once I get moved into the new house with the shop/lift).

Right now, I'm pretty much looking for a proven piece that I can put in and forget about.

[straycat990]

Right now, I'm pretty much looking for a proven piece that I can put in and forget about.
Material Removed because I refuse to allow my words and thoughts to be used to support this board

[KenMosher]

By loud? Clicking at idle? During lockup?

[EightSecV6]

By loud? Clicking at idle? During lockup?


While idling. Take a coffee can and fill it half full with trans fluid, drop 3 marbles in it and shake vigorously, you'll get the picture..... :add_wegbr

[straycat990]

Material Removed because I refuse to allow my words and thoughts to be used to support this board

[Slow91z]

I have a question...Why would it make noise for one person and not for someone else??? Is there something different that can be done on assembly that can affect this??

[straycat990]

Material Removed because I refuse to allow my words and thoughts to be used to support this board

[Slow91z]

Hmmm...Sounds like it's a tough unit...Still I'm curious about the chatter.

[Turbobuick]

While idling. Take a coffee can and fill it half full with trans fluid, drop 3 marbles in it and shake vigorously, you'll get the picture..... :add_wegbr

That's a pretty good description.

I ran a PI multi disk LU in my mid 10 sec TSS setup. I always slowed down (considerably) when running the lock up. Some things to consider when running a LU in a 10 sec car.
1. You'll tear up more trans parts, such as input shafts unless you go with the billet pieces
2. Boost spike! Especially when the LU first hits. If you do it on the 1-2 shift you can pull the motor RPM down pretty significantly costing you HP an ET. Some people have sorted this out but the majority of guys I know (I live in OH) that have been successful with the LU do it with the chip somewhere in 3rd gear. That take some playing with.
3. IMO you have to run a shorter duration cam. My experience has been the larger cams will suffer with the LU because when the LU hits it will pull the motor to far down in RPM and kill HP and ET. I would typically lose 3-5 mph by trying to run the LU. I tried several things such as taller gears, higher shift points etc. but never got it sorted out.

In the end my car was flying, at the time, without the LU and adding it was IMO a tuning hassle at that point. I feel the guys with the smaller cams w/LU were running the same #'s as me without the LU. It's all a matter of taste but in a 10 sec car I would run a more effecient non-LU conv and spend the extra $$ on a larger billet cam (> 206).

As far as PI customer service goes I think they are a fairly decent company. I always got good service and had my conv. there a few times for inspections, updates, and stall changes. They always took care of me.

[KenMosher]

I definitely fit the "small cam" configuration ... I've noticed that without the lockup, the stocker converter would flash way high in 2nd without the TCC locked.... as in 6000 RPM and I'd lose about a tenth in E.T.

The better ported heads and a little bigger cam in the rebuild (218 cam) might be more forgiving than the old combo at higher RPM, but my car would slow down if it saw more than about 5700 RPM in a run.

Is that the gold "T"? Didn't you try the 9x11 and have problems with driving over the locked clutch?

[Turbobuick]

I definitely fit the "small cam" configuration ... I've noticed that without the lockup, the stocker converter would flash way high in 2nd without the TCC locked.... as in 6000 RPM and I'd lose about a tenth in E.T.

The better ported heads and a little bigger cam in the rebuild (218 cam) might be more forgiving than the old combo at higher RPM, but my car would slow down if it saw more than about 5700 RPM in a run.

Is that the gold "T"? Didn't you try the 9x11 and have problems with driving over the locked clutch?

No, I have and had a GN. You maybe confusing me with Dave England. I never had a chance to run the 9x11. In all honesty the PI converter worked great just not with my combo. It wasn't terribly effecient but it wasn't horrible either, in non-LU. I ran a 224/224 solid roller and it was all done by 6000 in my combo and it made massive low end torque (I think around 650 lb/ft). The only problem was that when the LU would engage it would actually pull my rpm down to ~3k which was way to low for my combo. If your dead set on running a LU I would go with the 206/206 roller. That combo has gone seriously fast here in Ohio and that cam seems to work very well with the LU.

[Slow91z]

I definitely fit the "small cam" configuration ... I've noticed that without the lockup, the stocker converter would flash way high in 2nd without the TCC locked.... as in 6000 RPM and I'd lose about a tenth in E.T.

The better ported heads and a little bigger cam in the rebuild (218 cam) might be more forgiving than the old combo at higher RPM, but my car would slow down if it saw more than about 5700 RPM in a run.

Is that the gold "T"? Didn't you try the 9x11 and have problems with driving over the locked clutch?


You may not have that problem with a good converter unlocked...You were running a restalled D5 correct??

[TurboDonnie]

You may not have that problem with a good converter unlocked...You were running a restalled D5 correct??

Exactly!! That's why I suggested the non-lock before, just didn't know how to word it. :rock:

[KenMosher]

You may not have that problem with a good converter unlocked...You were running a restalled D5 correct?? Nope. STOCK direct from GM D5. I killed 4 restalled stockers (one in just one day at the track!), and I found the stocker actually would live locked up (200+ runs and 10K street miles).

... and I'm convinced I want to stay lockup, if for no other reason than the top end charge and the reduced heat on the street.

[Slow91z]

Exactly!! That's why I suggested the non-lock before, just didn't know how to word it. :rock:

I'm glad I could help ya out.


Ken I understand why you want a lockup converter, I just mean that with a higher quailty converter you probably will not have to lock it up in 2nd to keep for getting out of your RPM range...You might find that locking it up in 3rd is a better choice with a higher quality converter.

[KenMosher]

Ken I understand why you want a lockup converter, I just mean that with a higher quailty converter you probably will not have to lock it up in 2nd to keep for getting out of your RPM range...You might find that locking it up in 3rd is a better choice with a higher quality converter.

Ahhhh ... gotcha ... sounds reasonable!

[Be4u]

Ken have you made any decisions yet? I ended up buying a Vigilante 9 1/2 3500 stall l/u. Here are some links that I saved that dont include the buick sites....I dont know if your interested.

I-nfo
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-7388
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-7338
-2004r
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-7195
-what causes the converter to baloon
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-7176
-tci
http://www.converter.cc/tci_exposed.htm
-Art Carr
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-7005

http://www.specriteconverters.com/pro_street_series.asp


And I'm thinking that if you want to get good at changing converters you could buy one of these discount models :zahn: http://www.kdsperformance.com/20princow.html

[cdub]

Ken - curious what converter you settled on and how it performed for you?