Tremec TKO into TR

[BBBAD 6]

Allright, I know everyone seems to be pretty much against a standard turbo regal. Because I have no life and way too much time, I have already started converting my 81 "Sport Coupe" to LC2 power, and a :eclipsee: manual transmission :eclipsee:. Looking at TKO.

After reading all the negative feedback on the other boards, I wonder has anyone had positive results?

I can't believe that it can be that bad. The initial spool up would be the main problem I see. After talking to a bunch of kids that run Turbo Eclipse's at the track they gave me an idea. Their launch consisted of revving it to 6000 grand and then slipping the clutch. Once its fully out, you shift up. On a TR im thinking if i do this at 3500 it should work to some extent. Although I should note that I am not building this car as a drag car and instead am going for the road race setup.

The boost lag between shifts becomes minimal with the use of a Blow Off Valve. For some reason no-one seems to mention them. I figure if all this crap works for imports it should be able to be modified to work on TR's.

[turbofish38]

My opinion exactly. I've been thinking about doing the Viper T-56 though. Mine is still in the planning/dreaming stage right now. Many years ago I was BS'n with a Pro Mod racer and I asked how they launch a supercharged PM with a 5 speed Lenco and I was surprised when he said they preload the clutch on the line like you would a torque converter. As far as the boost falling off between shifts I dont think that is much of a problem as I would like to think I can power shift better than Ronny Sox and on a road race course you would have the BOV to control any spikes and as long as you keep the revs up that wouldn't be a problem either. And on the street who drives their car under boost 100% percent of the time anyway. If you make any progress let me know as I would enjoy hearing about some real world success stories instead of some of the urban myths that have been circulating.

[Sleeper]

My opinion exactly. I've been thinking about doing the Viper T-56 though. Mine is still in the planning/dreaming stage right now. Many years ago I was BS'n with a Pro Mod racer and I asked how they launch a supercharged PM with a 5 speed Lenco and I was surprised when he said they preload the clutch on the line like you would a torque converter. As far as the boost falling off between shifts I dont think that is much of a problem as I would like to think I can power shift better than Ronny Sox and on a road race course you would have the BOV to control any spikes and as long as you keep the revs up that wouldn't be a problem either. And on the street who drives their car under boost 100% percent of the time anyway. If you make any progress let me know as I would enjoy hearing about some real world success stories instead of some of the urban myths that have been circulating.


I'm one of those urban myths ;)
I guess you guys have read my posts about this topic. I will point out again that you cannot make comparisons with Pro mod cars and Turbo Eclipses...They are completely different animals, different rules apply here.
IMHO. One of the uses of std tyranny's in rally and road race cars, is to be able to manipulate the rpm to get the motor into the usable torque range.
3.8 SFI= Flat torque curve (low Rpm) It is almost always in "torque" band, and with the use of proper fueling and turbo sizing it will "pull" out of any corner you want it to. I'll stop my ranting now.
Instead of turning this into negative feedback, my suggestion is (and this is meant in all seriousness) that you take a look in the archives on the other boards for the parts needed to do the swap, and take a chance and do it! Record all the steps you had to take, misc parts needed, and things you discovered along the way, and report back with your findings. This way you will have first hand knowledge, that you will be able to share with those that are curious. Many have talked, few have followed up on their words.


I step down off my soap box :)
Paul

[jastrckl]

The thrust bearings on the buick 231 aren't up to handling the loading of a clutch at these power levels. You will go through cranks quickly.

[REDS TTYPE]

I'd love to have a turbo buick with a 6 speed manual behind it for a street cruizer even if it wouldnt be as good as an auto the fun factor would rule :rock:

now for going fast its definatly auto but I dont put down the idea of a stick ...I've drove plenty of stick shift turbo cars and they are a blast

who knows once I get the ttype back together may have to put a 6 speed in the elcamino :racer:

[turbofish38]

The thrust bearings on the buick 231 aren't up to handling the loading of a clutch at these power levels. You will go through cranks quickly.
If this were true than how do the guys running stage 2 blocks and steel cranks in Busch Grand National, SCCA Trans AM, CART and keep their engines together? I relize we are talking about stage blocks and steel cranks but I'm under the impression the specifactions between the two are the same. Now I also relize the longetivity isnt going to be as great as it would be with a torque converter to act as a cushion but I think this is a moot point.

Yeh Paul, If I won the lottery today this is one thing I would definetly do. And you know I would record and document everything down to last nut and detail just to see what kind of trouble you would run across. IMO every one thinks a TR is a completly different breed of animal for some reason. Its a car with a turbocharged engine just like every other car with a turbocharged engine, there is not that big of difference.

[Sleeper]

If this were true than how do the guys running stage 2 blocks and steel cranks in Busch Grand National, SCCA Trans AM, CART and keep their engines together? I relize we are talking about stage blocks and steel cranks but I'm under the impression the specifactions between the two are the same. Now I also relize the longetivity isnt going to be as great as it would be with a torque converter to act as a cushion but I think this is a moot point.
You are kidding right? :rotflmao:


Paul, If I won the lottery today this is one thing I would definetly do. And you know I would record and document everything down to last nut and detail just to see what kind of trouble you would run across.
It isn't that expensive. I know Lee was selling off some of his old parts. I still have some stuff lying around.



IMO every one thinks a TR is a completely different breed of animal for some reason. Its a car with a turbocharged engine just like every other car with a turbocharged engine, there is not that big of difference.
I'm sorry and I don't mean to flame but... :rolleyes1 :screams: These motors are completely different than "every other car with a turbocharged engine" If they were so common in design, then everybody would be running 16+ lbs of boost on pump gas and producing 245 HP @ 4400 Rpm & 355 Ft Lbs of torque at 2000 Rpm, and could easily jump up to 400 HP & 600 Tq with a few simple mods.
Show me another factory motor (of equivalent size) that makes this kind of power in this Rpm range!

PLEASE someone else do this swap.
Nobody seems to want to believe mine or Lee's (GNvair) findings. Again, it was not fun to drive, especially when you are making anything over the stock level of Hp. It don't take much to hit 5 grand and you don't want to miss a shift either. Banging shifts just broke the tires loose and made the car very uncontrollable. Trying not to bang shifts and feathering the clutch, just caused me to go through a lot of clutches. When she starts to spool, it will overpower the clutch if it isn't fully engaged and smoke it pretty good. (Yes, I used some HD Disk/ PP setups and found it a pain to drive in traffic.) But hey... to each his own.

Paul

[Recklessrob]

I had wondered about this myself. When I asked a few
people about it, they said the main problem was making boost
off the line. I would think loading the clutch would work but,
I don't think the clutch would last very long either. As for
using a blow off valve, all I've heard is negative.
The problem being when it opens the turbo is unloaded
and then over spools. And things go down hill from there.

[jastrckl]

Now, if you want to mate a STAGE motor to some sort of manual transmission, have at it. and yes, it's done often. I was under the impression the original poster wanted to do this to a PRODUCTION 231ci block (he DID say LC2 power)-in which case, you'll be hurting longevity quite a bit. maybe not as notorious a problem as dsm crank walk, but still not reliable.

[TurboBob]

I had wondered about this myself. When I asked a few
people about it, they said the main problem was making boost
off the line. I would think loading the clutch would work but,
I don't think the clutch would last very long either. As for
using a blow off valve, all I've heard is negative.
The problem being when it opens the turbo is unloaded
and then over spools. And things go down hill from there.

My opinion.... I have a twin turbo stealth, 5 speed. and my GN.

An automatic is easier to go fast with, but perhaps I'm just a hack with the stick. The 5 speed has a lot of personality. Each has its own.

To launch a turbo+stick, you need a 2-step or a lot of practice+sticky tires.
The stealth is AWD, it's a rocket out of the hole on street tires....!

Blow-off valves are a must with a manual, the couple seconds of turbo flutter just becomes a quick psssshhh, and the turbo recovers reasonably fast. Of course, the fuel control needs to be correct, if the BOV is open to atmosphere, then Speed Density control should be seriously considered.

The swap can be done, and should be done. I don't think there are any real stumbling blocks. But it won't make a good drag racer, but a fun street car.

Generally you would want to size the turbo smaller than a drag setup for good response on the shifts....

Later

Bob

:eclipsee:

[BBBAD 6]

I guess I probably should go more into it, huh?

I have started the conversion. I have almost all parts except TKO so far.

Yes, the motor is a stock LC2 for now. I do plan to upgrade to Stg 2 or TA block next year, but in the mean time, im going to see what happens.

Most standard conversions i've seen in g-bodies use a mechanical linkage and such. I took the F-body pedal assembly and welded to tabs on it so that it now fits a booster/reservoir out of a 86 monte ss, so vacuum brakes. Actually the car came with hydroboost, but i removed it because it was acting up and did not want to deal with it. Anyways I had to use a 1/2" spacer between the booster and firewall in order to get clearance for the pushrod and also the clutch master cylinder. i'll post pics soon. It is kind of a pain in the ass to keep tweaking everything so that it jsut fits right. By the time i realized it wasn't worth it I went to far, so i figure i gotta finish, right?

Investigating T-5's was useless, the torque rating is really weak, and they are expensive for some reason. DnD Performance, the company that sells the Viper t56 also sells TKOs that bolt to std GM bellhousing. I got a scattershield for BOP engine and picked up an Aluminum Flywheel cheap off ebay, i figure there isn't a huge demand for obvious reasons. The two main obstacles next are the hole in the floor, and the crossmember.

I will take pictures of what i have so far, when i get a chance and post them. And yes i do accept that the 3.8 is not an eclipse, i was reffering to the theory behind it, "loading the clutch." The kid up the street from me and also my cousin are both running BOV's on automatic 87 GN's and they have not had any problems.

Which reminds me, after thinking about it, the stock computer really does need an auto because of the neutral switch, TCC, etc. But I am running DFI for now, which does not equate for the tranny. :thrashi:

[TurboBob]

Sounds like good stuff going on!

Vaccuum brakes are fine, my stealth has a vaccuum assisted CLUTCH...... just make sure the check valve is really good and you will have no problems. Don't feed it from the PCV hoses, get the vaccuum block for the throttle body.

The DSM and "3S" guys launch "Matt Monet Style", which means holding the revs at about 3500, floor it, and start feeding it the clutch as the rpm's pass 6000. With the Buick we may have to translate the RPM's to "american" (meaning the low redline of the buick) :) A 2-step rev limiter would make for some great launches too....

Bob
86 GN
91 Stealth RT/TT
96 Impala SS *turbocharged* (sold)

[Sleeper]

My hat is off to you BBBAD 6. :applaus:
It sounds like you have things in motion. Keep us posted.

Paul

[turbofish38]

Check out this site http://www.keislerauto.com/
They dont have a kit for a G-body but all of their kits do use a stock bellhousing and they also have a way of using the stock Z-bar and manual linkage with a slave cylinder. All of the clutch linkage and shifter boots and tunnel pieces are available as reproductions through the usuall places. My idea was to use a bellhousing from a Buick 350/455 with a T-56 and maybe rebalance a Buick 350 flywheel to even fire V-6 specs or have the correct flywheel made by http://www.mondellotwister.com/ and use the stock G-body manual linkage and rewire the NSS to work with a factory 4-speed switch. I'm sure because of the length of a T-56 a new trans X-member would have to be fabricated or maybe one of the aftermarket ones would work. The nice thing I noticed about the Keisler T-56 is they have a foward shifter which puts the shifter in the stock location. I figure just the trans swap alone would be in the $5K range and then I figure you would need to reconfigure the motor by maybe doing a cam swap along with a turbo upgrade to optimize the engine powerband to the T-56 gear ratio spread. Not exactly in my budget right now. Good luck and go for it BBBAD 6, I'm on the optimistic side of your project.

[1badTTA]

Can we say "Supra" :fragez: :fragez:

Can it be done? Of course.
Will it work? Sure, to some extent.
Will the benefits outweigh the disadvantages? Probably not for most people.

If you want to take a car with aerodynamics of a brick and try to make it go really fast, this is the way to do it. Ask anybody out there what the handling of a G-Body is at say 140mph, most will lift long before that point due to the pucker factor.

I think it has been proven many times that a stick and a turbo will result in poor 1/4 mile performance compared to an auto and an auto will work just fine for autocrossing with a couple minor mods such as a really good tranny cooler.

If someone were looking to run the Silverstate 100 with a TTA, sure a T56 or similiar tranny would be a good idea, but I can't think of any other reason to do the swap especially in a G-Body.

Good luck, and let us know what you think of it when you finish.