A new TSE contender in the making.

[V6RACER]

Look out, I think we have another TSE contender in the making..

[Kip]

Jason if you have a guy that is looking to get run TSE you might want him to get a hold of Bob Hinson and see if he is going to be the RRA again at Bowling Green. The word on the street is they are going to change this class around and take some of the things away that were allowed in past years. I have 2 customers I am scared are going to get screwed on this deal as their cars should be ready for TSE this comming year and fit the old rules but who knows what is comming.
Take care, Kip

[Boost]

Jason, Kip contact James West. I would think Bob wants no part of RRA @ BG in '07, I don't blame him, neither would I.


The word on the street is they are going to change this class around and take some of the things away that were allowed in past years.
:tantrum2:

Kip, I've heard the same.

[CRUZZY]

[QUOTE=Boost]Jason, Kip contact James West. I would think Bob wants no part of RRA @ BG in '07, I don't blame him, neither would I.



roy,
yah, especially when thats my car !!:haha:

[GRNDNL]

Ya, I think it was the tubbed cars with the holes drilled in the bumper that was the last straw......:crybaby: :aajack:

Dam race cars in a street car class......:D

[V6RACER]

I think it will fall into the TSM class if needed.

[Ted A.]

Ya, I think it was the tubbed cars with the holes drilled in the bumper that was the last straw......:crybaby: :aajack:

Dam race cars in a street car class......:D


True so true. Only thing is some of the street car theme still being used is the lack of saftey equipment. I predict a new class that saftey equipement and fire suits will be optional, as the track is responsible for tech and they won't check those items. :thinking:

[Louie L]

Read that little article in the GSXtra titled:

"Going Fast With Class?"
Its quite clear who and what they are speaking of(TSE). Is also quite clear who's still in control of the GSCAs ears..

They mention an outrageous level of modifications ...and that he(Richard L.) will pull the plug..

Its quite clear that they are going to further tighten up the rules to keep themselves and King Red safe from all outsiders.

[Louie L]

BTW Cruzzy, Motor looks great..

[CRUZZY]

BTW Cruzzy, Motor looks great..

yah,
but will she go !!!! :sprite10:

thanks
don

[Boost]

:D BTW Cruzzy, Motor looks great..
Yup, I agree...

yah,
but will she go !!!!

Richie said he's still your daddy:rockwoot:

"Going Fast With Class?"
Its quite clear who and what they are speaking of(TSE). Is also quite clear who's still in control of the GSCAs ears..

They mention an outrageous level of modifications ...and that he(Richard L.) will pull the plug..

Its quite clear that they are going to further tighten up the rules to keep themselves and King Red safe from all outsiders.
TSE in BG :crybaby: :owned: :asskickin :add_shit: :hanged: :racer: :smashfrea :drive:

roy,
yah, especially when thats my car !!
Don't even THINK about going thru TSE tech. You are a marked man in BG.

Wanna have fun ?...then TSM it is. That's where the HARDCORE resides.:rockwoot: What a great bunch of gearheads...almost as nice as the TSL guys.:D

[Steve Hughes]

I think TSE in BG is going to be by invitation only.

[Boost]

I certainly hope you are invited (though I doubt it, too)...you certainly don't have a "race" car and it certainly is fast (pretty damn fast if you ask me). Just make sure and keep the knob down till the last qualifying pass.

You are a credit to the Buick community and a true gentleman.:beer:

[Otto J]

Roy,Did Laz get his package? When i saw that i remembered the story from Indy and had to buy it for him

[Louie L]

I certainly hope you are invited (though I doubt it, too)...you certainly don't have a "race" car and it certainly is fast (pretty damn fast if you ask me). Just make sure and keep the knob down till the last qualifying pass.

You are a credit to the Buick community and a true gentleman.:beer:


I agree with all points here. Cool guy and sweet car. But unfortunately no matter what they are going to gang up on him..and vote him out..

[V6RACER]

Roy, tell Laz to bring my video back that he took at Indy.

[Otto J]

Go get it yourself Jason

[Boost]

Otto J

Roy,Did Laz get his package? When i saw that i remembered the story from Indy and had to buy it for him

Otto, Its here at the shop, I'll make sure he gets it.

V6RACER

Roy, tell Laz to bring my video back that he took at Indy.

Jason,
video?... what video ? You mean the one with those two babes in the room ?:anbet: No way...we're keeping those, not for you:icon16: that's private property:bbtribe:

Louie L

I agree with all points here. Cool guy and sweet car. But unfortunately no matter what they are going to gang up on him..an

New class ? "TSR, maybe"?:firedevil

[HighPSI]

New class ? "TSR, maybe"?:firedevil


No, TSL :D

[CRUZZY]

:D




Richie said he's still your daddy:rockwoot:


:D


i know :lickit:

[Boost]

No, TSL
A little faster, great group of "COMPETITORS", same type of gearheads that you find in TSM...racers. Something to consider...:rockwoot:

i know

...so does Julio:firedevil

[NCTURBOS]

Don,

Great looking motor... Now where are my DVD headrest units!!!??? :rockwoot:


K.

[NCTURBOS]

Now...

Putting aside who runs or who does not run the class, what's wrong with having a heads-up class or two that are more related to oem appearance?? I like the fact that there are multiple classes open the the racers depending on the modifications of the cars in respect to both appearance and performance. That's how TSM, TSO, and TSL all came to be.

My thoughts would be something like this:

TSS = street appearance/performance '109 class
TSM = outlaw appearance/performance '109 class

TSE = street appearance/performance Stg.2 class
TSL/TSO = outlaw appearance/performance Stg.2 class

Am I wrong here?? Wouldn't this definition of the classes suit 100% of the turbo H/U racers out there. Some clarifications to the rules, and there you have it. Build the car to meet the black & white (not the gray) areas of the rules and everyone can play.


K.

[Boost]

K.
Am I wrong here?? Wouldn't this definition of the classes suit 100% of the turbo H/U racers out there. Some clarifications to the rules, and there you have it. Build the car to meet the black & white (not the gray) areas of the rules and everyone can play.


HMMMM. THATS WHAT I SAY ! Yet it's not necessarily that way:frown: Not in every event you participate in, anyway.

By the way...TSE can have a "109" and a 3.8 Stg motor with a 200lb. weight brake (3400lbs). It is NOT limited to 4.1 stg II blocks.

[Kip]

Keith help me out here and give me your definition of street appearance. Without that being define some may say that sounds good to them but have no idea what they are agreeing to.
See ya, Kip

[NCTURBOS]

My definition of "street appearance" for the TSS/TSE rules as a general point would mean full oem style appearance of the exterior/interior/engine bay.

Anything past that and you would fall into the defintion of "outlaw appearance". And that is where the TSM, TSL/TSO classes gain participation.

K.

[NCTURBOS]

By the way...TSE can have a "109" and a 3.8 Stg motor with a 200lb. weight brake (3400lbs). It is NOT limited to 4.1 stg II blocks.

Roy,

Yeah I know that, and think that it's great to have '109 motors at that performance level. I was just using the above as a general way to define differences. Of course with some "outlaw" appearance modifications a '109 motored car could/should fall into the TSL/TSO classes as well.


K.

[Kip]

So Keith what you are saying is that a TSE car would need to have AC, heat, stock shifter, stock seats etc? Why not just require a drive to prove streetablitiy?
See ya, Kip

[CRUZZY]

Don,

Great looking motor... Now where are my DVD headrest units!!!??? :rockwoot:


K.

thanks,

brown is on the way with them !!:beer:

[NCTURBOS]

Why not just require a drive to prove streetablitiy?
See ya, Kip

I thought your original question was about "street appearance", not street-ability/drive-ability?? These are two completely different things.

There are very high HP tube chassis (Pro Stock style) cars out there that could complete a short drive required for street-ability, no matter what make or model. But they would still not meet any required "street appearance" rules.

There is no doubt in my mind that there are some very streetable TSM, TSL, TSO cars in our relatively small TR world. But if they are built to have an "outlaw" race appearance, that is the type of class they should run in.


K.

[NCTURBOS]

So Keith what you are saying is that a TSE car would need to have AC, heat, stock shifter, stock seats etc?


In my opinion:

I think the TSE cars should have all the underhood components for a working a/c & heater system. If a racer decides to build their car and gutt these components out of the car for whatever the reason, making it have more of an outlaw appearance... TSL/TSO fits the means.

I don't have the current rules in front of me but, I believe the class allows TH-400 tranny's so the stock shifter won't work, but the car should have the oem console for overall appearance.

stock seats, etc...


K.

[Kip]

Keith,
You are correct street appearance and street ability are different and that is what I was after, to see which one you really cared about to set the classes apart.
You are correct that the rules for TSE allow a 400 but I figured if someone was going to change the rules for the class which is what I am thinking is going to happen they might change that also.
I see you have listed thatyou are the RRA for TSS for 2007, can you tell us who the rest of the RRAs are going to be?????
Thanks, Kip

[NCTURBOS]

Keith,
You are correct street appearance and street ability are different and that is what I was after, to see which one you really cared about to set the classes apart.

What I really care about is the heads-up racing as a whole. Obviously leading up to last year my main views were based towards the growth of the TSS class. But I think it is important for all the RRA's to be active in helping each other out. (Damn... That sounds too much like something a politician would say... :add_wegbr )

Again, in my opinion if you have distinctively different classes based off of appearance and allowable modifications the performance level will dictate itself. With that there should be a H/U class for everyone wanting.

I see you have listed that you are the RRA for TSS for 2007, can you tell us who the rest of the RRAs are going to be?????

Honestly, right now I'm just going on the assumption that I'm still the RRA as I haven't heard anything otherwise.


K.

[DAVID S.]

Instead of making guys who fit the current rules of TSE move up to TSO, why not have the guys with heat ac and a 200R4 move down to TSS. Taking rules away from guys who have built their cars around a specific class is not right.


David

[NCTURBOS]

Instead of making guys who fit the current rules of TSE move up to TSO, why not have the guys with heat ac and a 200R4 move down to TSS. Taking rules away from guys who have built their cars around a specific class is not right.

David

I don't think that a jump to TSO would necessarily be needed when you have the TSL class in between. TSL seems to be a class where a TSE performance level car with a TSO appearance would be a perfect fit, right?? I believe that's why those guys proposed thast class last year.

Moving down to TSS wouldn't be an option if the car is Stg. powered.


K.

[HighPSI]

In my opinion:

I think the TSE cars should have all the underhood components for a working a/c & heater system. If a racer decides to build their car and gutt these components out of the car for whatever the reason, making it have more of an outlaw appearance... TSL/TSO fits the means.

I don't have the current rules in front of me but, I believe the class allows TH-400 tranny's so the stock shifter won't work, but the car should have the oem console for overall appearance.

stock seats, etc...


K.

IMO: This will lead to a huge mess. Everything wil be open to interpretation. What is considered a stock appearing intercooler? What about wheels, MAF hose, air cleaner, etc..? Who picks and choses what is "stock appearing" and what's not. Does a car with the correct safety equipment (roll bar) get DQ'ed?

[NCTURBOS]

Cal, It shouldn't be that hard. If the car is built to a set of clear cut rules, instead of people trying to find the gray areas in between for any advantage they can find. If someone has to interpretate a rule they are looking for a gray area in between the lines. Nothing should be open to interpretation.

If you were to take an all original GN/TR and build it exactly to the allowable rules for any particular class, what you have left that hasn't been changed would be "stock appearing", correct??

The stock location intercooler is only relevant to TSS. Wheels, MAF hose, air cleaner, etc. I think are already spelled out pretty good in the rules. If a car has the safety equipment per NHRA/IHRA for their given performance level why would they be DQ'ed??


K.

[Ted A.]

I think it's a great idea. Those who want to have stock appearing A/C and all the stuff, throw in a S2 motor and there you have it. The reason for sour grapes is because the $hit that has been slung for years from some of the TSE rule interpretation. Maybe this is what needs to happen. Then they won't have to worry about any of the faster guys out there taking them down once and for all.

[9sec231]

Hey Keith,
the problem with TSE is that you only have 6 cars in the class .I think the problem is when someone that comes along that can "bring it" ppl like Red A. cry that he has a "street car".The facts are plain and simple, you guys want a class where you can run mid-nines with ac and all that. The problem with that is those cars cannot and will not pass tech anywhere . The way i see it, this is what's wrong with buick community, you want fast cars then you cry when it has holes in the bumper (holes in the bumper don't make it run fast ). I think TSE is a nice class but most of the technology is outdated and stock appearing don't mean much when you got a hi-dollar stage engine imho . The thing is when we ran fast in TSM everyone welcomed it and liked the fact that we and others are working on making it possible for them to run faster than they thought they could go, then you run fast in TSE, and they kick you out cause your wheel wheels have been barely patched (pretty lame when that doesn't make your car faster than anyone else). Every year ppl say TSE is the RRR show, i guess you can keep it that way and have 5 cars race .:nixweiss:

[Robert Wilson]

Keith,
I have been slowly gathering parts to build an engine for TSE that would meet last years rules. My worry now is will the Champion Intake (already purchased) would now be forbidden. Any talk of this?

thanks,
Robert

[Louie L]

Cal, It shouldn't be that hard. If the car is built to a set of clear cut rules, instead of people trying to find the gray areas in between for any advantage they can find. If someone has to interpretate a rule they are looking for a gray area in between the lines. Nothing should be open to interpretation.




K.


Interpretation is what the RA team thrives on.. What ever they interpret is the rule of the day. That only happens when someone becomes a threat. Like Laz said If they want only 5 cars in TSE then let them have em..

[Kip]

Well Louie that is exactly what I do not want to see happen. If everyone just rolls over and says let it happen then the poor guy who has been building his car in the TSE direction per the current rules gets a hard kick right in the shorts. I feel sorry for those people as they will be getting screwed.
Take care, Kip

[Louie L]

Kip,
I understand you completely. I certainly dont want any harm to come to the class, but come on... same crap 2 years in a row that ive seen. But we all know its been going on lots longer than that. I gave up..

[Boost]

Well Louie that is exactly what I do not want to see happen. If everyone just rolls over and says let it happen then the poor guy who has been building his car in the TSE direction per the current rules gets a hard kick right in the shorts. I feel sorry for those people as they will be getting screwed.
Take care, Kip
Reply With Quote

:daz: :wave: :croc: :haudrauf: :banghead: :tee:

[DAVID S.]

Robert,

I believe it all depends on how fast your car will go, then they will decide if it’s legal or not.

David

[Dusty Bradford]

:daz: :wave: :croc: :haudrauf: :banghead: :tee:

Not that I'd stir the pot. If I had Roy's car I'd fix the car with a/c or whatever it took to be legal for TSE next year and spank some ass. Those guys just hope people would not go through the trouble of proving a point so I'd do it just for the smile. Roy if you guys need anything I'll donate what I can to the cause:beer:

David S is right. If your car is faster they will climb all over it until some minor bs issue is found and then have some ranking official in the GSCA toss you out. That's the pansy way of racing but apparantly that's all some of those guys know.

[NCTURBOS]

Keith,
I have been slowly gathering parts to build an engine for TSE that would meet last years rules. My worry now is will the Champion Intake (already purchased) would now be forbidden. Any talk of this?

thanks,
Robert

Robert, there really hasn't been much talk as of yet in any of the classes. I do believe the Champion intake will remain for the class but we'll see for sure over the next couple months. I personally would like to see everything finalized by the Reynolds event.


K.

[NCTURBOS]

Robert,

I believe it all depends on how fast your car will go, then they will decide if it’s legal or not.

David

I don't believe that to be true. The way a car is determined to be legal or not for any given class is based off the allowable rules for that class. The "in general" way I listed them in my first post to this thread, I think would help this along.

If you were to build (2) identical cars, perfomance wise, but one meets the appearance of a "street" class and the other meets the appearance of an "outlaw" class they both have a class to run in but they are seperate from each other. From there you just need to decide per the given performance of the cars and allowable rules related to performance which one of the "outlaw" classes does the "outlaw appearing" car fit into, and which "street" class does the "street appearance" car fit into.


K.

[NCTURBOS]

Roy/Laz,

Without a doubt you guys have a handle on making these cars fly, and I have enjoyed seeing you guys progress over the years. I honestly did not see your car this past year at the Nats as I wasn't there until very late in the week and kind of busy. I have seen some video in the boards though, and in my opinion only putting the performance of the car aside... I don't think a "swiss cheese" front bumper fits into a "street appearance" class. That is strictly an "outlaw" appearance to me. I don't know much of the rest of the issues with your car. If it is/was just a bumper issue, I know what I'd do...

The point I'm trying to make is:

If you know now that TSE is a "street appearance" class per a set of rules with no interpretation, and TSL is the alternative class for the "outlaw appearance" which class would you show up to race @ BG with your car the way it sits now, bumper and all??

K.

[Dusty Bradford]

I don't believe that to be true. The way a car is determined to be legal or not for any given class is based off the allowable rules for that class. The "in general" way I listed them in my first post to this thread, I think would help this along.

If you were to build (2) identical cars, perfomance wise, but one meets the appearance of a "street" class and the other meets the appearance of an "outlaw" class they both have a class to run in but they are seperate from each other. From there you just need to decide per the given performance of the cars and allowable rules related to performance which one of the "outlaw" classes does the "outlaw appearing" car fit into, and which "street" class does the "street appearance" car fit into.


K.

You are right Keith. However it's always some kind of gray area or "interpretation" that causes the problem and the "interpretation" always goes only one way at the Nats. Majority of the time it's something so minor most peole think nothing of it until it's brought up in tech. How do you include that in the rules? We both know who's interpretation is final at the bs nats. It's sad that we all get together at that race to have a good time and some political bs always ruins the heads up classes simply to protect a certain individual from getting beat. Roy had a dozen offers from people to use a legal bumper this year. His car was 100% legal yet that minor issue with a patch of metal on the tub got him booted from the class. I'd put money on it that this year's revisions will have several changes that the main intention is to keep his car out of TSE with hopes that he won't make all necessary changes to compete in the class.

[Dusty Bradford]

The interpretation was that a minor mod was done by beating the ish out of the wheel tub with a hammer rather than doing like Roy and Laz did and using a piece of sheetmetal to form a clean section of tub.

The rules clearly stated no mini-tubs, minor wheel well mods only. Every one there had the opinion that the mod was minor and clearly not a mini tub. Red and his gang's interpretation was that a hammer was minor and his car was illegal. We saw which way the interpretaion went.....

[NCTURBOS]

Well Louie that is exactly what I do not want to see happen.

This is also what I don't want to see... And that is why I got involved as the RRA with the TSS class last year. A class that sooooooo manyyyyyyy people would like to see disappear. We had (7) cars show for tech this past year, which isn't many, but (6) of these cars were all new to the class!! Hopefully that means that I/we did something right and it is a move in the right direction. If you were to add some of the previous years racers to that, which all had viable reasons for not being there, we would of had (12+) in the class. Would-a, should-a, could-a, though I guess.

Heck, I'm just trying to help out. There is nothing in it for me other than 1-week of having fun @ B.G.


K.

[9sec231]

Hey Keith theres 3 classes we can run TSE ,TSL, OR TSO the thing is we ran TSM with this car and have never modified it .I believe the class record for TSE is still held by Roy in the 2004 Nats 9.44 with a 234 109 the same car thats illegal now .Theres not enough cars to break the classes up into outlaw and stock appearing .I dont know about you but if you have a 9.50 car would u want to run a 6 point bar and hit the wall at 145 ? I know its a silly point but if you can't pass tech you can't race anywhere ( you need safety equipment to pass tech at the track)by the time you put a full cage does the car not become a race car where or not it has ac ?

[NCTURBOS]

The interpretation was that a minor mod was done by beating the ish out of the wheel tub with a hammer rather than doing like Roy and Laz did and using a piece of sheetmetal to form a clean section of tub.

The rules clearly stated no mini-tubs, minor wheel well mods only. Every one there had the opinion that the mod was minor and clearly not a mini tub. Red and his gang's interpretation was that a hammer was minor and his car was illegal. We saw which way the interpretaion went.....

Dusty,

I have absolutely no experience with wheel-well or frame modifications on any type of car. So technically I can't even give an opinion there. But... If you cut-out, move, and weld a new piece in wouldn't that be the definition of a mini-tub?? Are there actual measurements defined for mini-tubbing??

K.

[NCTURBOS]

Theres not enough cars to break the classes up into outlaw and stock appearing.

We wouldn't really be breaking up the classes any more than they are currently, just defining the differences between them. I think with defined differences between them that would allow for some or all the classes to grow in participation without having to worry about changes from year to year. We need to get things defined as much and as close as possible sooner than later, as no-one likes to spend $$$$ every year just to make changes per rules. If a particular class suffers due to the growth of the other classes, well then we would see that the class may not be even needed at all.

I dont know about you but if you have a 9.50 car would u want to run a 6 point bar and hit the wall at 145 ? I know its a silly point but if you can't pass tech you can't race anywhere ( you need safety equipment to pass tech at the track)by the time you put a full cage does the car not become a race car where or not it has ac ?

I'm going to use a quote I heard the other day, third hand, from the mouth of an IHRA certification tech. "It doesn't matter how many tubes and points it has... If it doesn't have a certification sticker, its just a bunch of metal tubing."

With that said, I know plenty of cars in the TR world that by NHRA/IHRA rules can't legally make a pass... But still do, and not just at B.G. I normally reside on the safe side, myself. I can't even safely enjoy riding my H-D to work because of all the other idiots on the road putting on their make-up, talking on cell phones, drinking coffee, etc.


K.

[Dusty Bradford]

Dusty,

I have absolutely no experience with wheel-well or frame modifications on any type of car. So technically I can't even give an opinion there. But... If you cut-out, move, and weld a new piece in wouldn't that be the definition of a mini-tub?? Are there actual measurements defined for mini-tubbing??

K.

A mini tub is when the wheel well is split from front to rear. You then move the inner tub further in to the center of the car on both sides allowing a wider tire. The deal with Roy's car was his mod could have been done with a big hammer but we all know that it would look like a hack job so they chose to modify that area differently than some of us would. It was harder to do that way but looked much better than beating away at it with a hammer.

Obviously it wasn't a performance advantage and then they came back with...........It was Red's boys opinion that this mod allowed Roy to run a deeper backspacing wheel which was an advantage because he could leave harder since the car was lower in the rear than the rest of the guys in the class and their tires would rub if they tried to leave any harder:aajack: :thinking: :bs2: :nixweiss:

[NCTURBOS]

thanks,

brown is on the way with them !!:beer:

Showed up today...


K.

[CRUZZY]

Showed up today...


K.

now that is service :anbet:


oh ,
by the way how about my motor guys ?:haha:

[NCTURBOS]

oh ,
by the way how about my motor guys ?:haha:

Did we kinda get off your original thread topic... :icon16:


K.

[CRUZZY]

Did we kinda get off your original thread topic... :icon16:


K.

:add_wegbr

[Long Duk Dong]

I sometimes wonder where the common sense stops and the nit-picking starts. It is my understanding that both TSS and TSE started out as "street car" classes. One class for stock blocks and one for Stage motors. One would think as educated adults using a little common sense that we all would realize what that really entails. Along the way it would appear that a few concessions where made here and there and before anyone realized it things were beginning to take a turn in a direction that was steering away from the original intent of the TSE class. If this class was intended to be such that one could bring their Stage powered GN to and race but wanted to retain all of the amenities that came in the car then that is what it should be geared around. One has to build their car around the rules not vise versa. The problem as I see it is that while Roy and Laz have built a very nice car and both appear to be quite the gentleman it is unfortunate that their car would be geared more toward the TSL class. It is also unfortunate that it had to happen to these gents, but I am sure they realize that when you exploit grey areas that it is always a gamble, tis the nature of the beast. There are always going to be those that push the envelope and while it is not necessarily a bad thing as it keeps folks on their toes it can lead to revamping of rules when the origin of a class has gotten off of the intended path as it has in TSE. Once rules are revamped and things are taken out folks will inevitably get upset and fuss but one must again remember that their cars should be built by the rules not the other way around. I believe that Roy’s car would still be a serious contender even if it met every rule verbatim just because he and Laz appear to be that good at what it is they do.


Jim C.

[10SecGN]

Personally, the idea of building a class around staged powerplants, tranny that require you to change shifters and the such and large turbos which even on "de-turned" cars would require significant safety equipment, NHRA licenses and the such and calling it "street" appearing is just silly. Calling holes in the bumper not street appearing is even more silly. To DQ someone because they choose to modify the wells in such a way that they didn't look like they were pounded out with a hammer to get the same affect is just stupid.

Do I need to remind you guys of the actual street car pictures that have be posted on the boards over the years? Remember the guy that used the floor heating registers as air vents in his quarter panels? Big giant crazy looking rear wings and front fascias. 1 man's idea of street appearing may not be anothers. How about that 100% stock Monte Carlo that Chevy put out that looks just like a cup car. Juinor's car I think it is. Is that street appearing? Looks like a race car to me even when I see them on the street.

If your going to call it stock appearing, then there is no place for 5" MAFs, cold air kits, non-stock appearing turbos, etc.

Here's an idea, make the cars pass safety tech for the speeds they run and a lot of the controversy may just disappear.

Sully

[Kip]

OK Long Duk Dong, you explained how you are going to tell Roy and Laz that their car does not fit. Now explain to the two guys who raced TSE last year and their cars fit the rules how they are out for this year whith the changing of the rules. Maybe you should start with something like this: Guys you know all the work and money you put into your cars well we plan on screwing you out of it.
See ya, Kip

[Long Duk Dong]

The rules have been the same regarding safety equipment for many years now and have not changed. Why is it that some are worried about the safety equipment of anothers car? Is it going to keep you from getting hurt; no. It is only going to keep the driver of the car in question from being hurt. I understand your point but the fact remains that it is up to the track to decide this. You will find MANY tracks throughout the South are this way.


OK Long Duk Dong, you explained how you are going to tell Roy and Laz that their car does not fit. Now explain to the two guys who raced TSE last year and their cars fit the rules how they are out for this year whith the changing of the rules. Maybe you should start with something like this: Guys you know all the work and money you put into your cars well we plan on screwing you out of it.
See ya, Kip

Kip, are you OK? Did you and I become best friends somewhere along the way and now you suddenly have this great insite into my motives for my previous post? First off don't put words or motives in my mouth because I didn't say anything about Roy and Laz except that I believe they seem to be quite the gentlemen and that they appear to have their program together regarding their car. The comments I made about the pushing of the rules comes from my own experience in doing so and you know what Kipster, I never said a word in protest of getting the boot anytime they punted me as I knew the potential outcome when I did whatever it was I had done and trust me I pulled plenty of grey area stunts. The tech in during a 5.50 race was nothing but the other racers checking out my ride and bringing things to the attention of the officials was always a b*tch. I knew it and played the game as many others have. That is why I stopped class racing and went back to grudge matches and street cars. I crewed with a friend who ran the NMCA EZ Street class and it was the same thing. It doesn't matter what group it is when rules are revamped there are always going to be folks getting upset. Some points are valid and some points are not. It really doesn't matter because it is not up to you or I. It would appear that you are going to fall into the group that is pizzed off because the rules are being revamped and getting back to their intended roots. As such you are now attacking me and throwing a temper tantrum. If you read my entire post and let it sink in you would have clearly understood the comment about there being some that would be upset after the rules being revamped. I don't plan on screwing anyone out of anything and to be honest could care less where or why you came up with that comment. It would appear to me that rather than state the facts it is a version of internet rock throwing because you have an obvious bias. If you are that concerned about Roy and Laz's well being in the racing world then why don't you send them some sponsorship money? My post was a simple opinion about the issues at hand, that is all, nothing more nothing less. If the rules and intended structure of the class was that in which to let the two of them compete in TSE I would say "go for it". I love watching their car run because you never REALLY know what it is capable of from year to year, they just seem to find more and more power, so don't come at me sideways like I have some grudge against them. You don't know me. It would appear to me that most of the folks doing a majority of the sh*t slinging don't even come to the Nats much less race in a class there. This year a friend of mine finally convinced me to look at running my car in one of the classes. I believe I have chosen TSS, as such there are MANY changes I will have to make to my car if I definetly decide to do it. I have already been making preperations and I am wondering what all rule changes are coming out this year for that class. You don't hear me whining about it, I realize that if I am to compete when the rules are posted then I will have to conform to them. There is nothing that I or anyone else is going to say to you other than "Kip, please write the rules for all the classes" that is going to change your mind and that is unfortunate. As we say here in the South Kip - "I am gonna splain this to you one mo' gin." I would love to see Roy and Laz run in TSE or anyone for that fact. I believe the class could use some fresh blood and Roy and Laz can always be counted on to make others push to find more power and ET from year to year. So calm yourself and have a beer on me.

Jim C.

[NCTURBOS]

Personally, the idea of building a class around staged powerplants, tranny that require you to change shifters and the such and large turbos which even on "de-turned" cars would require significant safety equipment, NHRA licenses and the such and calling it "street" appearing is just silly. Calling holes in the bumper not street appearing is even more silly. To DQ someone because they choose to modify the wells in such a way that they didn't look like they were pounded out with a hammer to get the same affect is just stupid...1 man's idea of street appearing may not be anothers.

Exactly... That's why there needs to be rules, and they need to be set-up to easily clarify the differences between the classes.

The way your post comes across to me is... There should only be one class, run what you brung?? Correct??

Here's an idea, make the cars pass safety tech for the speeds they run and a lot of the controversy may just disappear.

Is there a certification sticker on your roll bar/cage yet? How about everyone else? If not guess what... :nixweiss:


K.

[NCTURBOS]

Now explain to the two guys who raced TSE last year and their cars fit the rules how they are out for this year whith the changing of the rules. Maybe you should start with something like this: Guys you know all the work and money you put into your cars well we plan on screwing you out of it.

Kip, Who are these (2) people?? What rule changes have them concerned about not being legal?? What would keep them from stepping up to TSL if need be?? As stated above I like you don't want to see TSE participation drop, but there are other viable options.


K.

[10SecGN]

Is there a certification sticker on your roll bar/cage yet? How about everyone else? If not guess what... :nixweiss:

K.

1st.. I just finished getting mine in. 2nd my car only runs 10's which does not require Cert. finally and most important.If it was required to run it would be! :shock:

[10SecGN]

The rules have been the same regarding safety equipment for many years now and have not changed. Why is it that some are worried about the safety equipment of anothers car? Is it going to keep you from getting hurt; no. It is only going to keep the driver of the car in question from being hurt. I understand your point but the fact remains that it is up to the track to decide this. You will find MANY tracks throughout the South are this way.

I agree it is up to the track, but to purposely develop a class that violates safety rules isn't too smart. To answer your question. Yes, sometimes others following the safety rules does in fact protect you. For example if your going down the track and someone next to you loses a c-clip , then a wheel , and then they are in your lane taking your out. You can come up with hundreds of like scenarios.


Sully

[Long Duk Dong]

I agree it is up to the track, but to purposely develop a class that violates safety rules isn't too smart. To answer your question. Yes, sometimes others following the safety rules does in fact protect you. For example if your going down the track and someone next to you loses a c-clip , then a wheel , and then they are in your lane taking your out. You can come up with hundreds of like scenarios.


Sully

Sully, you are correct and as I was discussing this exact issue regarding C-clip elminators and aftermarket axles with a friend Saturday. I said the exact same thing about the axles but to be honest other than that and a DS safety loop I am at a loss as to how many other items are going to keep the guy next to you from getting hurt. Now if the car were a complete POS then I would agree whole heardetly. To my knowledge the class was never designed to purposely violate safety rules as when these classes were originally constructed the cars were not running that fast. Now they are running quite fast but the powers that be have decided to stay with the street car theme and have put the major safety concerns at the feet of the racers. Take a look at the "F.A.S.T" series cars, they are a prime example, at this point, of the safety of the drivers being carried by the drivers. These guys are flying on a bias-ply tire with little or no safety equipment. I guess the bottom line is that there are always going to be those that feel as if safety rules should be adhered to strictly and those that do not feel as if they should be told that they MUST protect themselves so long as no one else is in jeapordy. So long as the racer in question is not putting anyone other than themselves in jeopardy at this point it is still up to them. What is it exactly that you are referring to? I would venture to guess it is something to do with Red's car (Not to bust your balls but he seems to be the favorite target of most on the BB's.). Please do not take anything mentioned above as an attack as it is not meant in such a fashion but more-so just curiousity. I don't mind debating the issue and hope that should we decide that we do not see eye to eye about this subject we may agree to disagree and still part as friends. Take care.

Jim C.

[10SecGN]

I would venture to guess it is something to do with Red's car (Not to bust your balls but he seems to be the favorite target of most on the BB's.). Please do not take anything mentioned above as an attack as it is not meant in such a fashion but more-so just curiousity. I don't mind debating the issue and hope that should we decide that we do not see eye to eye about this subject we may agree to disagree and still part as friends. Take care.

Jim C.

Hey Jim I am not even in the class so my opinion doesn't really mean chit. I used to not think that much about safety, but after spitting a driveshaft out of the car at 120, having a fire in another car and damn near going into the wall when a tranny line broke I think about it a bit more but mostly about my safety. Your right that most of the rules are designed to protect the driver but a couple more examples could be a non-SFI balancer coming apart and landing on your side. Same for flywheel. Tranny coming apart with no blanket injuring the driver and causing him to lose control. Driver hitting head on unpadded rollbar and losing consciousness. I am sure there are more but those come to mind quickly.

I am not targeting anyone. I like Red and have know him for years. It just seems that cars are always getting kicked out of this class for tit-tat things when other things that are just as bad are "interpreted" as ok. The rules as written allow for so many things that are not factory stock appearing (Removal of AC, Any shitfer, removal of MAF etc.) yet all the blurb in the xtra talked about was holes in the bumper or airdam.

So no worries Jim if we never agree that's ok. :D

[NCTURBOS]

1st.. I just finished getting mine in.

How would a NHRA/IHRA tech/cert. inspector comment to that?

2nd my car only runs 10's which does not require Cert.

You've been 9's correct? And we all know you'll be back into the single digits again. But I'm not specifically talking about you either, look at the rest of the cars in all the classes and see who's legit.

I think the safety of a vehicle should match the performance of the vehicle, but that still doesn't change the fact that we need to differentiate the rules between the classes. Other than the photos of Don's new motor... :anbet: That is the other reason for these posts.

So far I don't see any constructive comments from any TSE racers, just negativity towards possible change.


K.

[Kip]

Keith the two people who raced TSE this year and who would be out by the rules you suggested are David Stinson and Steve Hughes. Sorry you feel my comments have been negative, I just want everyone to get a fair shake. As far as what would it take for them to step up to TSL, I would say motor changes, turbo changes, a way to drop 200 pounds of weight out of the car, and possibly a parachute install. Then the other problem is will TSL be there to move up to????? I would think with the poor car count showing at BG and also at INDY it might be gone.


Something for everyone to remember when reading my comments is that my car fits the rules even under Keith's new suggestions, no hidden agenda here.


See ya, Kip

[Kip]

Long Duk Dong, I do not know where to start you are so far off base from my post. But will try so here goes:
No I do not consider us friend let alone best friends. Best I can remeber we only met once. You are right I do not really know, I have a story or two about you from other, seen a picture of you on one of the boards you posted and read some of your posts such as the one where you wanted to get to together with Cal at a half way point between where you live and he lives to settle some difference of opions.
I do not see any where in my post where I had a Temper Tantrum or Attacked you. You keep comming back to Roy and Laz in your first post and you resonse to me, what I asked about was how to explain the new rules idea to guys already running the class the will be out.
Hope this clears things up a little bit but if not let me know,
Kip

[NCTURBOS]

Keith the two people who raced TSE this year and who would be out by the rules you suggested are David Stinson and Steve Hughes. Sorry you feel my comments have been negative, I just want everyone to get a fair shake. As far as what would it take for them to step up to TSL, I would say motor changes, turbo changes, a way to drop 200 pounds of weight out of the car, and possibly a parachute install. Then the other problem is will TSL be there to move up to????? I would think with the poor car count showing at BG and also at INDY it might be gone.

What are they lacking if the rules change? I think TSL can exist if there is someone to take charge of the class and organize it, along with probably a small minimum car field. I'd have to look back at the GS Nats webpage, but I thought the winning performance of the TSL class wasn't that much quicker than TSE to necessarily need that many changes. I know the class was formed by previous TSE racers that wanted a few more lienient(sp?) rules.


K.

[Kip]

Keith, if you are asking me what Steve and David would need to be able to still run TSE if the rules changed to your way of thinking, AC and heater boxes come to mind right off.
See ya, Kip

[Long Duk Dong]

Long Duk Dong, I do not know where to start you are so far off base from my post. But will try so here goes:
No I do not consider us friend let alone best friends. Best I can remeber we only met once. You are right I do not really know, I have a story or two about you from other, seen a picture of you on one of the boards you posted and read some of your posts such as the one where you wanted to get to together with Cal at a half way point between where you live and he lives to settle some difference of opions.
I do not see any where in my post where I had a Temper Tantrum or Attacked you. You keep comming back to Roy and Laz in your first post and you resonse to me, what I asked about was how to explain the new rules idea to guys already running the class the will be out.
Hope this clears things up a little bit but if not let me know,
Kip

Kip, if I misunderstood your post then I appologize. I am at a loss as to why all the fussing and fighting about the rules being revamped. We all know what both TSS and TSE started out as and the powers that be have decided to take it back to its roots. This type of things happens on occasion. It happened in the old NMCA series as well as various other groups. It is unfortunate that someone is always caught in the loops. It seems to me that there is always controversy regarding the TSE class. I mean that is one class out of 5 as there is TSS, TSL, TSM and TSO classes as well. I would hope there is something for everyone. To my knowledge no new rules have even been posted so why is everyone in an uproar? I do know second hand that the GSCA would like to take the original two classes back to their roots and I for the life of me cannot understand why folks are so wound up about it. I understand that you are trying to look out for your friends but why don't we just wait until the rules come out before we start in on each other? I mean with 5 Turbo Buick classes one would think there should be something for most everyone. Some will have to make changes to their cars and or swap classes and some will not.

As for me referring to Roy and Laz's car it is because that seems to be where most of the controversy lies and I was simply stating my take on it. Nothing more, nothing less. No matter what class they run I will be rooting for them. :rockwoot: I hope your friends cars will make the bill to run the TSE class as well should that be where they choose to run. My opinion is not about ANYONE, it is about the rules and how they are interpreted. Lots of folks have posted their take on this subject but because I don't mince words or jump on the GSCA bashing band wagon I usually come across as crass. That is not how it is intended, I have just watched things being taken out of context for many years now and it seem to be getting to an all time high here lately. Why don't we all just stay tuned and wait to see what happens. Take care.

Jim C.

[Long Duk Dong]

Hey Jim I am not even in the class so my opinion doesn't really mean chit. I used to not think that much about safety, but after spitting a driveshaft out of the car at 120, having a fire in another car and damn near going into the wall when a tranny line broke I think about it a bit more but mostly about my safety. Your right that most of the rules are designed to protect the driver but a couple more examples could be a non-SFI balancer coming apart and landing on your side. Same for flywheel. Tranny coming apart with no blanket injuring the driver and causing him to lose control. Driver hitting head on unpadded rollbar and losing consciousness. I am sure there are more but those come to mind quickly.

I am not targeting anyone. I like Red and have know him for years. It just seems that cars are always getting kicked out of this class for tit-tat things when other things that are just as bad are "interpreted" as ok. The rules as written allow for so many things that are not factory stock appearing (Removal of AC, Any shitfer, removal of MAF etc.) yet all the blurb in the xtra talked about was holes in the bumper or airdam.

So no worries Jim if we never agree that's ok. :D

No problems!!! The balancer issue is a so-so one based somewhat on the RPM the racer is seeing but I fully understand your point as I have seen a SBC one rotate where it is pressed together. I have not seen an aftermarket flexplate come apart but I am sure it has happened somewhere I would think. Maybe the convertor exploding would dictate a tranny blanket but h*ll if they have that much money in their car I would hope they are using a quality convertor or it may balloon and they will be out an azzload of cash as well when it wipes out the thrust bearing and starts the domino effect. The padded roll bar issue - I have never seen anyone run without a helmet. As you can see from both your and my comments it is a matter of interpretation as well. No worries and I hope to see you next year. The beer will be on me. Take care slim.

Jim C.

[southern boost]

Their was a lot of conflict in this class always has been it class where rules are made to be changed to suit the "man" . I agree with sully on safety issues my car will get a cage soon has the chassis shop calls and says it my turn and cage won't be cert. ,but it will safe my life .Finally i have to say any one that argues about safety is crazy story and point is I had 2 close friends both had bad wrecks almost the same way at the same track one die the other did not 3yrs apart different between the 2 was one had no cage the other had and uncert. cage that safe his life. The cert. is nice but still doesn't change the fact a cage done right will safe you, proper safety equipment will safe you.


so argue about somethin else ,but dont bring in safety because it not somethin to argue about one day one of these guys will have a major wreck and the great line will be said "IF ONLY THEY WOULD HAVE HAD SOME SAFETY EQUIPMENT" because some it better then nothing at all .


just my 02 everyone be safe and always have fun


later Randy

[Long Duk Dong]

Their was a lot of conflict in this class always has been it class where rules are made to be changed to suit the "man".

Here are a few things to think about - Last year "the man" lobbied and had allowed aluminum T/A blocks, BG Custom and Champion intakes yet he doesn't use them on his car. I am curious as to why "the man" would ever want them to allow aftermarket fuel management system (DFI, Fel-Pro, Motec, etc.) yet he uses a Lightning MAF and stock type chips. H*ll people whine about the MAF he chooses to use but no one whines about using an LS1 MAF and translator or the above mentioned DFIs.

Why in the world did "the man" ever ask them to allow fuel cells when he uses a stock tank. Being that he lobbies for the rules I have to wonder about his age affecting his thought process as he is the only one running a stock location intercooler in that class yet he got them to allow any front mount air to air intercooler. There are other things "the man" has gotten them to allow such as - A/C and heating equipment may be removed yet he still has his. Aftermarket fiberglass or carbon fiber bumpers, hood and bumper filler panels are allowed yet I believe his are all steel. Race seats are allowed only if seats are attached to the rear crossbar of the roll bar and seats are painted and upholstered to match the factory interior. He has a completely stock interior. If "the man" has always controled rules for "his" class then why in the world would he allow such items in "his" class?

Why did he ever allow all the afore mentioned items when he does not use them on his own car? It would imply to me that he must not be in his right mind being that the above mentioned items in the hands of the right racer would have a clear advantage. Ever ask yourself why these items were ever a part of TSE rules? I can tell you a little secret, it isn't because he uses them. Last year the aluminum blocks and intakes were approved by the majority of the class.

Now we can address this issue before it even comes up. How many people has "the man" protested and why? I have heard the comment before that he has his "henchmen" do it for him. I hate to tell ya but after watching them all this year I can say that he doesn't have control over anyone. If anything he spends more time watching and laughing at it all. I would think as educated adults that we really know what most of this is about. The fact of the matter is this - There are certain people that do not like "the man" or the fact that he has dominated that class for as long as he has. Then along comes a car that pushes the rules and causes more than a few folks to think that the two original classes should be taken back to their roots before they get anymore out of hand. The fact that these two issues are intertwined leads the conspiracy theorist to rub there grubby little hands together in glee as if to say - "We have you now". Unfortunately this is not the X-Files. The class was beginning to get out of hand in the eyes of those that make the call and it had NOTHING to do with performance. It was about APPEARANCE!!! Sometimes a rock is just a rock. Maybe if folks spent more time working on their cars and less time worrying about what "the man" is doing they could knock him off his thrown. Keep in mind that this is JMO. Ya'll take care.

Jim C.

[southern boost]

Hey Jim I think you took the "man" thing out of context with me i didn"t mean it the way you took it i meant it in the way it was used in early years and I will come straight to you and say i wasn't talkin about Red ,if I have to say something about a person I say it . My main thing and only thing I will say is this CLASS IS UNSAFE FOR SPEED AND THE POWER THESE CAR MAKE no one should have to tell you to be safe and that my friend is my .02 .


I will also repeat I have no problems with Red ,he and I disagree on some things ,but i do business with Quad air has matter of fact i recieve parts from them today for a customer .:rockwoot:

Jim finally be safe maybe will meet up at race i hope my life is about to calm down and next year get to make several events ,if so first round is on me.:beer:


later randy

[Long Duk Dong]

Randy, I am glad you clarified these issues and hope you understand that I was not personally attacking you but more-so attempting to use the context of your post to address the train of thought that some folks project regarding the man in question and the class in general. As previously stated I watched and read for many years before I took the position that I have regarding these matters. As such I have read allot of the mud slinging that has been posted over the years even when some were just blatent lies and personal attacks on certain targets over and over that were posted without basis or merit. I look forward to meeting you and having a few rounds. If you are a cigar smoker, I will bring a few extra for you as well and I have some truly good ones. Will you be at Reynolds this year? Take care and good luck to you and yours.

Jim C.

[GNRegal]

[QUOTE=southern boost]Hey Jim I think you took the "man" thing out of context with me i didn"t mean it the way you took it i meant it in the way it was used in early years and I will come straight to you and say i wasn't talkin about Red ,if I have to say something about a person I say it . My main thing and only thing I will say is this CLASS IS UNSAFE FOR SPEED AND THE POWER THESE CAR MAKE no one should have to tell you to be safe and that my friend is my .02 .


I will also repeat I have no problems with Red ,he and I disagree on some things ,but i do business with Quad air has matter of fact i recieve parts from them today for a customer .:rockwoot:

Jim finally be safe maybe will meet up at race i hope my life is about to calm down and next year get to make several events ,if so first round is on me.:beer:


+





Randy, could you please reveal who is the "man" that you refer to above? Thanks
GNRegal

[southern boost]

hey GNregal I was using it like how father talk sling ,trash, do you understand what I what mean like phrase "don't mess with the man" single no one person I simply meant this class has it on personally and either you fit in or you dont and that my friends is the bottom line.:rockwoot: :beer:



later Randy

[GNRegal]

{Quote}Their was a lot of conflict in this class always has been it class where rules are made to be changed to suit the "man" {Quote}


Randy... Unless I'm losing it which is very possible I don't quite understand your previous post. No matter which way you dice or cut the above statment it very much appears to me that in this case there is a specific person being referred to. Please tell me why or how I'm wrong in thinking so.:confused: :thinking:
GNRegal

[southern boost]

GNregal all I can say is that it was meant has paraphrase or has southern people say sling it just and expression ,if you have trouble with that I'm sorry to confuse .I meant to single no one person out and all i had to say about the class is they really need a much better defined policy on safety equipment .


Once more i was singling no one out sorry ,if you took it that way.

What I really wish would happens is all members in this class get together and come up with a safety policy before this becomes serious and someone gets hurt or worst.

again sorry for the confusin
Later Randy

[mec108]

[QUOTE=GNRegal]{Quote}Their was a lot of conflict in this class always has been it class where rules are made to be changed to suit the "man" :

Sad but true. When it comes to enforcing TSE rules, RED is "THE MAN" :crybaby:

[GNRegal]

[QUOTE=GNRegal]{Quote}Their was a lot of conflict in this class always has been it class where rules are made to be changed to suit the "man" :

Sad but true. When it comes to enforcing TSE rules, RED is "THE MAN" :crybaby:


Do you now or have in the past raced in TSE? If not I don't see where any part of your statement could have any validity or credibility.:nixweiss: Could you supply us with any proof or on hand personal experiences to back what you say here? Also it looks like you didn't read Long Duk Dong's post #79. His post seems to even moreso make your above statement complete and total :bs2:

GNRegal

[mec108]

Many venders ADVISED me not to race in the TSE class.

[GNRegal]

Many venders ADVISED me not to race in the TSE class.


Who were the vendors and why were you advised not to run TSE? Without answers to these two questions I still still find it hard to give any credibility to your statements referring to Red or "THE MAN". You have made statements and now it is time for you to back up what you say with concrete evidence. Thats if you can or is it just more unsubstantiated :bs2: ??

GNRegal

[mec108]

Who were the vendors and why were you advised not to run TSE? Without answers to these two questions I still still find it hard to give any credibility to your statements referring to Red or "THE MAN". You have made statements and now it is time for you to back up what you say with concrete evidence. Thats if you can or is it just more unsubstantiated :bs2: ??

GNRegal Evidence?:thinking: Gn Regal, You might want to check out (2006 TSE Rules) Responce #19 from this wed site. :sprite10: Since my "credibility is in question.:shock:

[mec108]

I believe it all depends on how fast your car will go, then they will decide if it’s legal or not.

David[/QUOTE] :beer:

[mec108]

Robert,

I believe it all depends on how fast your car will go, then they will decide if it’s legal or not.

David :beer:

[GNRegal]

Evidence?:thinking: Gn Regal, You might want to check out (2006 TSE Rules) Responce #19 from this wed site. :sprite10: Since my "credibility is in question.:shock:


Just did. Exactly what thread numbers of the total 31 are you referring to so we can be on the same page and we clearly understand each other? Still waitng for a response from you of what vendors ADVISED you to not race the class and why. Please give me a list these verifiable vendor names so I can speak with them and get first hand reasons why they ADVISED you not to run the class. Can or will you do this? Your quote above looks to me like it conatains a little spin and avoids answering my previous simple two questions. :icon16:

GNRegal

[10SecGN]

Just did. Exactly what thread numbers of the total 31 are you referring to so we can be on the same page and we clearly understand each other? Still waitng for a response from you of what vendors ADVISED you to not race the class and why. Please give me a list these verifiable vendor names so I can speak with them and get first hand reasons why they ADVISED you not to run the class. Can or will you do this? Your quote above looks to me like it conatains a little spin and avoids answering my previous simple two questions. :icon16:

GNRegal


I think he did... Post # 19

[NCTURBOS]

If the rules are "built around Red's car", how come the rules for TSE:

--Allow front-mount intercoolers, but he still runs stock location?? You know... they don't work very well 'cause of heat soak. Advantage... not Red

--Allow F.A.S.T, DFI, etc., but he still runs an oem ecm and single chip?? You know you can't run fast that way. Advantage... not Red

--Allow the "new" Champion intake, but he still runs an oem ported intake?? You tell me which has more power potential. Advantage...not Red

--Allow Fiberglass/Carbon bumpers, hoods, etc., but his car is still all metal?? Advantage...not Red

--Allow TH-400's, but he still runs a TH-2004r?? Etc., etc., etc...


So tell me again how the rules are built for one guy alone?? Rules are rules whether it be NHRA, IHRA, NMCA, DHRA, BG, etc. You build your car to meet the rules, plain and simple. If you need clarification ask the Race Director, RRA, GSCA, etc.


K.

[mec108]

Just did. Exactly what thread numbers of the total 31 are you referring to so we can be on the same page and we clearly understand each other? Still waitng for a response from you of what vendors ADVISED you to not race the class and why. Please give me a list these verifiable vendor names so I can speak with them and get first hand reasons why they ADVISED you not to run the class. Can or will you do this? Your quote above looks to me like it conatains a little spin and avoids answering my previous simple two questions. :icon16:

GNRegal Thread #19 (2006 TSE rules) The first two lines of that responce....

[GNRegal]

Many venders ADVISED me not to race in the TSE class.


Now I got it. It was Cal's statement. First who were the two of his customers that were booted in previous years from TSE and what were the issues? Second you state "many venders" advised you not to race the class. I need more than one vendor's name to support the words "many". Who are the others? Lastly all of the points brought up by Cal had nothing to do with any possible performance advantages & etc. for anyone. This being so why would he shy racers away from TSE as his customers cars could probably have bigger and better go faster parts on their cars than Red. If he could get to where one of his customers ran and won in TSE that would be an even bigger feather in his cap and more good press which should attract more customers for his services. Do you agree? Still see a lot of spin comments in this very interesting thread that need to be straightened out.

GNRegal

[Long Duk Dong]

:popcorn:

[GNRegal]

:popcorn:




Yep my popcorn is out also. Waiting for some proof and support from those on the other side. Need to get rid of the :bs2: being slung around here.:rockwoot:


GNRegal

[Long Duk Dong]

Yep my popcorn is out also. Waiting for some proof and support from those on the other side. Need to get rid of the :bs2: being slung around here.:rockwoot:


GNRegal

I feel ya, it is always interesting to watch the pot shots that are taken via the net. Seems like TSE is the great conspiracy within the Nats and the Buick world. General Red (Lord wrinkled Vader) has the Death Star and he and all of his storm troopers are trying to conquer the Empire. The fact that the TSE class was intended to be a Stage block, stock appearing class (within reason) seems to be overshadowed by all the :bs2:. It was meant to be a class where folks could bring their fast azz stock appearing street cars and battle it out. When all else fails and all of the accusations have been debunked there is always the good ole safety issue. The thing that kills me about most of the folks hollering about safety is that if you asked them if they would raise the same kinda stink about someone jumping off a bridge they would say, "if he is that stupid then let him do it", but they :crybaby: about safety and the well being of others when it comes to the race track. For those that would ask how can I compare racing down a track to jumping off a bridge or state that they don’t have to jump with them, I say - NO ONE strapped you in the car, put a gun to your head and made you race in that class. People still get killed in this sport despite the best safety equipment; just look at Steve Grebeck (http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/features/0207mmff_steve_grebeck/) (RIP Steve). Yes, safety equipment will lessen the chance but this is STILL the land of the FREE and that ladies and germs includes free thought.

The other issue is Red and his "cronies", for this I have a SIMPLE solution. Build a car as per the rules and bust his wrinkled azz. Until then stop whining about every damn thing and taking pot shots at someone that I have yet to see come here and sling sh*t at any one of you. It amazes me that folks can't leave things at the track, they have to come to the net and make it personal when they had EVERY opportunity to do so at the track. This is better than the girls section of the lunchroom at a Jr. High school.

Jim C.

[GNRegal]

According to the dates and time listed when posts are made here we haven't heard from mec108 since around mid day on Monday. I wonder is he is having trouble getting the names from Cal who said he already had two customers booted from TSE? Also the only one vendor mec108 advised him not to run TSE still does not add up to "many". :biglaugh: Could all he has posted be a :croc: ?


GNRegal

[GNRegal]

NCTURBOS you forgot a few more handicaps Reds black car has to overcome. One is it has a stock rear end with the stock rear end ratio 3:42 gears inside. Stock rear control arms. And the motor is only a 3.8 stageII as opposed to the 4.1 the other TSE racers probably have to have to power their cars. Another is a stock OEM 58mm throttle body. For some reason I'd bet there are a even a few more go faster parts that could be installed installed on it and still be well within the TSE rules guidelines. :yikes:


GNRegal

[HighPSI]

I wonder is he is having trouble getting the names from Cal who said he already had two customers booted from TSE?

LOL! All he would have to do is PM me.

[Otto J]

Its no big secret, It was Louie lopez last year,and Roy and Laz this year.

Good thing the crew got them booted,You TSE guys would have got your asses handed to you:biglaugh:

[GNRegal]

[/quote]

[mec108]

GNRegal " YOU!!! CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!" You wanted some "CONCRETE" evidence about vender(s) steering away their loyal customers from TSE, I delivered. As far as my conversion (evidence) with the other venders? HONESTLY, There no way that I can prove to you that they even existed? The last time I taped a phone conversion was in the early to mid 70s. "BELIEVE IT......OR NOT" P.S Thanks for keeping tabs on me. I missed you to...M.E.C

[GNRegal]

Oh good you are back. For a while I thought you bailed out of this one because of frustration. Not. And you are still spinning and dancing around the statements you made that are being questioned as to their authenticity. Yep you bet that I'm keeping tabs on you. Now on to respond to your last post.




[QUOTE=mec108;127770]GNRegal " YOU!!! CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!" You wanted some "CONCRETE" evidence about vender(s) steering away their loyal customers from TSE, I delivered.




So far you delivered Cal who is is only "one" vendor NOT "Many". The only "CONCRETE" evidence I'm looking for is who are the others? Are there any other vendors or is it just more :bs2: from you? ONE is nowhere near MANY! I'm not looking for proof or evidence just a few more of these vendor names that would help make me believe what you say. I also don't need to hear any taped phone calls either to believe you just some more "NAMES". Then there are the two racers kicked out of TSE during the past few years. Again all I am asking for NAMES and why! To repeat once more all I need here is 'NAMES" not evidence or proof or tapes to believe you which I am having a lot of difficulty doing so far. What part of my above few simple questions don't you understand?:D


GNRegal

[southern boost]

The names are in post 104 and I was there when they got bumped want to talk about :bs2: ! I will say this I never saw Red say a word either way about it.


later randy

[mec108]

GN Regal; Your right, I don't understand or believe in "NAME DROPPING"? But.. since your so obsess with me answering your questions, I will. Yes.. I did speak to many different vender(s) on different occasions. (3) from the southwest arizona area (your neck of the woods) (2) from the great lakes area, (1) from pennsylvania, (1) from the carolina's (no longer in business) And (1) VERY HELPFULL person from florida (THANKS _ _ _) And "yes" they all pretty much "ADVISED" me to stay from the TSE class!!! for " VARIOUS REASONS" and go race in the "Crown jewel" TSM class. As far as me "NAME DROPPING" on very helpfull vender(s) NO!! It's NOT going to happen!!! Knowing that, You got two choices. (1) "Let your fingers do the walking" and make some phone calls or (2) Get over it!! Talk to you later..... MEC

[TurboDiverArt]

Just found this thread, this is a good one. I won't add anything because I don't race the class but much of what is being said here and complained about has been said for many years on all the boards. With all the BS that seems to happen each and every year in BG I still for the life of me can't figure out why people just don't take their business elsewhere?

Now where has that king size popcorn gone to?

Art.

[GNRegal]

Just found this thread, this is a good one. I won't add anything because I don't race the class but much of what is being said here and complained about has been said for many years on all the boards. With all the BS that seems to happen each and every year in BG I still for the life of me can't figure out why people just don't take their business elsewhere?

Now where has that king size popcorn gone to?

Art.




Where should we take our business to and other than the still so called and yet unsubstantiated BS give us a list of other things wrong with BG. Then follow up by giving us some examples of why elsewhere is better. :icon16:


GNRegal

[TurboDiverArt]

Where should we take our business to and other than the still so called and yet unsubstantiated BS give us a list of other things wrong with BG. Then follow up by giving us some examples of why elsewhere is better. :icon16:


GNRegal

Hi Ron!

[GNRegal]

Try Lou. :biglaugh:

GNRegal

[GNRegal]

Hi Ron!


This does not like an intelligent answer to the questions asked of you.:icon16: Do you sleep with mec108? Guess you won't be in BG next year.:fing26: Looks like you are bringing your inane drivel to this board also. Can we expect believable answers to the questions asked you in post 110 or will you spin and dance around them also like a few others do?


GNRegal Lou

[Long Duk Dong]

I for the life of me cannot figure out what it is that folks cannot understand. It is SIMPLE - MAKE SURE THAT YOUR CAR FITS THE RULES!!! Louie got booted for running tires that were clearly against the rules. Roy and Laz got it for having a wheel well that was not in compliance. From what I understand both Roy and Louie are good folks and it is unfortunate their cars did not fit the rules; but wasn't TSL created just for cars such as these? I hate to say it again but this is not the great conspiracy that some are hoping for. As I have said in the past, there are enough big money racers here that someone could put another car together to bust the ole mans butt with yet no one has done so.

Also, Ron hasn't even posted anywhere that I have seen recently. Don't go dragging him through this bullshit when he has nothing to do with it. Don't make things personal when they don't have to be.

Jim C.

[Turbobuick]

I for the life of me cannot figure out what it is that folks cannot understand. It is SIMPLE - MAKE SURE THAT YOUR CAR FITS THE RULES!!! Louie got booted for running tires that were clearly against the rules. Roy and Laz got it for having a wheel well that was not in compliance. From what I understand both Roy and Louie are good folks and it is unfortunate their cars did not fit the rules; but wasn't TSL created just for cars such as these? I hate to say it again but this is not the great conspiracy that some are hoping for. As I have said in the past, there are enough big money racers here that someone could put another car together to bust the ole mans butt with yet no one has done so.

Also, Ron hasn't even posted anywhere that I have seen recently. Don't go dragging him through this bullshit when he has nothing to do with it. Don't make things personal when they don't have to be.

Jim C.

What about Steve Hughes? Didn't he get DQ this year?

[Otto J]

Roy and Laz were within the rules as written, But there are a few different opinions of "minor" wheel well modifiction.
But the "minor" mod in question would be for a larger tire,Which they were not running.

[mec108]

This does not like an intelligent answer to the questions asked of you.:icon16: Do you sleep with mec108? Guess you won't be in BG next year.:fing26: Looks like you are bringing your inane drivel to this board also. Can we expect believable answers to the questions asked you in post 110 or will you spin and dance around them also like a few others do?


GNRegal Lou He's not my type.:yikes:

[Ted A.]

Roy and Laz were within the rules as written, But there are a few different opinions of "minor" wheel well modifiction.
But the "minor" mod in question would be for a larger tire,Which they were not running.


Otto, I think they were running a 28x10.5 tire.

The mods to thier wheel wells are considered minor as the "no mini tubs" gives the example of the extreme that is not allowed. The stock wheel wells were still there with a minor mod. There is not one person that can call thier wheel well a mini tub period. The call was BS, they should have let him run and clarified them and the methods used to deem him illegal were also BS. It was clear that no matter what anybody said that it was falling on deaf ears, I was there I saw/heard it, and said that "this is BS" right there. I recall Nick Micales ruling on Jeffs TSO car and him saying you guys better get your $hit together with these rules. I think it's time for that.

I agree with Nick and he let Jeff run as he went through all the trouble to get to the event, then the rules were changed and clarified. Heck, TSE had no problem clarifying "No distributors" didn't they?

I do not know Red or any of this "The Man" business, but it would appear that there is a little problem with consistant rule enforcement in that class. If you kick a car for a tire infraction but let saftey slide, you have two rule violations, but one stays and runs. The track saftey was implemented this year for 06, and back in 05 when Louie was kicked it was "should". If you are putting saftey in the hands of the track and it is documented, does that mean if somebody gets hurt for saftey, can we use these discussions and acknowledgements that it was the tracks job to enforce saftey and they didn't?

All I can say, is if I was a vendor/sponsor I would sure be leading by example and wearing/possessing the proper equipment for speeds attained and not subjecting myself as a target for these discussions year after year, but that is just me.

[V6RACER]

WOW, it is truely amazing how much press Cruzzy is getting off of his new setup.. lol

He will probably run TSM anyway because we welcome people to increase the car count and have some fun, instead of looking to limt the class.

[TurboDiverArt]

This does not like an intelligent answer to the questions asked of you.:icon16: Do you sleep with mec108? Guess you won't be in BG next year.:fing26: Looks like you are bringing your inane drivel to this board also. Can we expect believable answers to the questions asked you in post 110 or will you spin and dance around them also like a few others do?


GNRegal Lou

OK "Lou". You give me the finger, yeah, that's intelligent. It's well known I don't go to BG. Seems like more and more people also don't go, just read the above posts and look at the turnout this year. Add to that the "issues" with payouts and it's no surprise why. I’m sure next year will again be the “biggest and best ever”.

BTW – Nice grammar.

Art.

[GNRegal]

OK "Lou". You give me the finger, yeah, that's intelligent. It's well known I don't go to BG. Seems like more and more people also don't go, just read the above posts and look at the turnout this year. Add to that the "issues" with payouts and it's no surprise why. I’m sure next year will again be the “biggest and best ever”.

BTW – Nice grammar.

Art.




More spin and dance but no answers. Next year may or may not be " the biggest and best ever" but with you not being there it should be better.:nana: Don't let anyone down by changing your mind and showing up.:thanks:


GNRegal
Lou

[TurboDiverArt]

More spin and dance but no answers. Next year may or may not be " the biggest and best ever" but with you not being there it should be better.:nana: Don't let anyone down by changing your mind and showing up.:thanks:


GNRegal
Lou

I can promise you I won't disappoint by showing up. Many have said it's the people that make the event, this is true. You can race anywhere but you can't always get to see many of your friends. I have some friends that go to BG but I have many more that go to BPG, Norwalk and Cecil. Most if not all my friends that go to BG I have met at the before mentioned events. I've never been to Reynolds or Las Vegas but I hear those are also good events. There are probably others that I can’t think of. You asked for events that I feel are better, I have answered your question without dancing. If it's the people that make the event, why not go to the events that have the majority of them? In addition, these events listen to the racers and play by the racers rules. It seems BG is there for the people that put on the event. If you read the above posts I'm certainly not the only one that feels this. I didn't start this thread and I really didn't add much to the conversation or fan the flames other than to say this has all been said before. I didn’t cross-link to any of the other threads that would have added fuel to the fire. You're the one that's calling me out and making me list other events that I feel are better than BG. I didn't provoke you, you provoked me.

You seem like you are provoking Cal to come out here and publicly list reasons. Are you provoking him too?

Art.

[EightSecV6]

Otto, I think they were running a 28x10.5 tire.

The mods to thier wheel wells are considered minor as the "no mini tubs" gives the example of the extreme that is not allowed. The stock wheel wells were still there with a minor mod. There is not one person that can call thier wheel well a mini tub period. The call was BS, they should have let him run and clarified them and the methods used to deem him illegal were also BS. It was clear that no matter what anybody said that it was falling on deaf ears, I was there I saw/heard it, and said that "this is BS" right there. I recall Nick Micales ruling on Jeffs TSO car and him saying you guys better get your $hit together with these rules. I think it's time for that.

I agree with Nick and he let Jeff run as he went through all the trouble to get to the event, then the rules were changed and clarified. Heck, TSE had no problem clarifying "No distributors" didn't they?

I do not know Red or any of this "The Man" business, but it would appear that there is a little problem with consistant rule enforcement in that class. If you kick a car for a tire infraction but let saftey slide, you have two rule violations, but one stays and runs. The track saftey was implemented this year for 06, and back in 05 when Louie was kicked it was "should". If you are putting saftey in the hands of the track and it is documented, does that mean if somebody gets hurt for saftey, can we use these discussions and acknowledgements that it was the tracks job to enforce saftey and they didn't?

All I can say, is if I was a vendor/sponsor I would sure be leading by example and wearing/possessing the proper equipment for speeds attained and not subjecting myself as a target for these discussions year after year, but that is just me.


Well said Ted, that along with a payout of $180 makes my scheduling of events for next year alot more easy.

[Otto J]

Well said Ted, that along with a payout of $180 makes my scheduling of events for next year alot more easy.
Jim Rome wont be the same if you dont show:omfg:

[Long Duk Dong]

I realize that allot of ya'll have a long way to travel when coming to BG and that a bigger payout would help offset the expense but that can't be one of the main reasons you would come; is it? I remember at times traveling 5-600+ miles for a damn trophy and a $100.00 check but it sure was a blast!!! I also realize that it is VERY easy to take allot of this stuff to heart but when it comes right down to it this is still just a hobby. To me BG is a place where I get to watch my friends race, see certain folks every year and kick myself in the azz for being so hard headed about class racing. By the end of the week I am usually in the tank about $1500.00 + (Not counting cigars and drunk tabs.) and I am not even racing. I think of it as one of my vacations during the year, hell sometimes it IS my vacation. I guess what I am trying to convey is that regardless of these internet sh*t storms there are very few that I would not love to sit down at "Toot's" and get :friday: with. Those of you that do come I look forward to seeing you, those of you that do not, I hope you will agian one day. Until then take care.

Jim C.

[Ted A.]

Where should we take our business to and other than the still so called and yet unsubstantiated BS give us a list of other things wrong with BG. Then follow up by giving us some examples of why elsewhere is better. :icon16:


GNRegal


While I am not answering for Art, I suggest you read Jim C's post above, it pretty much sums up what makes a event great. There are quite a few Buick related events to choose from. It's about the friends and good times, the racing is all wrapped up in it.

I like BG and if I could only go to two it would be one of them. I really thought Ron Joseph did a great job this year looking out for our needs, and I also like the Salem race with John Schmidt and Jim Haas. I have friends at all the events I attend, some don't make it down to BG and that is a shame.

[Long Duk Dong]

What about Steve Hughes? Didn't he get DQ this year?

No sir, as a matter of fact Steve fixed the issue and that was the end of it. He put the bolts to the lower control arms back in the stock location and ran the class. As a matter of fact I commend him for fixing the issue without incident and running in the race.

Jim C.