Alky vs. Propane

[jmidolo]

Has anyone run BOTH? Can you comment on the pros and cons of each? Which is cheaper to run, less fuss to install, better results? I've heard good things about both, but not from anyone that's actually run both and prefers one over the other and why.

A Progressive Julio kit is 400 or so and the OGS ProPain is 600. It looks like the alky setup is a bit more steath, if you could use that word.

One more question, what about the various Alky kits out there....SMC vs. Julio?

[Be4u]

I'm going to watch this post with you. I'm interested too.
Heres a link I found a couple of weeks ago. $150 compared to $400-$500.
http://members.cox.net/stevemonroe/AlcoholInjMod.html

[SMC]

Since I'm moderator of this forum I'm not going to hype my system over anyone elses. Both of the commercial alky kits are fine products, they may have slightly different feature sets. And I've never experienced propane so I won't go there either!

One advantage that both the Razor and SMC systems offer is 2 or 3 bar progressive control- that is when the pump speed (and spray volume) automagically increases with boost. This can avoid a potential bog from too much spray too quickly at part throttle.

[Razor]

Has anyone run BOTH? Can you comment on the pros and cons of each? Which is cheaper to run, less fuss to install, better results? I've heard good things about both, but not from anyone that's actually run both and prefers one over the other and why.

A Progressive Julio kit is 400 or so and the OGS ProPain is 600. It looks like the alky setup is a bit more steath, if you could use that word.

One more question, what about the various Alky kits out there....SMC vs. Julio?

Joe.. talk bout stirring the pot :add_schac

I dont know of any other vendor/company selling GN specific kits.

:elefant:

[Razor]

I'm going to watch this post with you. I'm interested too.
Heres a link I found a couple of weeks ago. $150 compared to $400-$500.
http://members.cox.net/stevemonroe/AlcoholInjMod.html

Actually you can rig a hobbs switch to a winshield washer tank and make an alcohol kit for less than 30 bucks.

:marchmell

[jmidolo]

Joe.. talk bout stirring the pot :add_schac

I dont know of any other vendor/company selling GN specific kits.

:elefant:


No, that wasn't my intention...I'm considering looking at either alky/propane come spring and wanted to know the pro/cons of them and also, if I go the alky route which sytems offers what over the other. Razor..is that Julio??

[SMC]

QUOTE=Razor]Joe.. talk bout stirring the pot :add_schac

I dont know of any other vendor/company selling GN specific kits.

:elefant:[/QUOTE]

Me & Razor have been there and done that on another forum, and are better friends for it....so you won't see a war in here!

And I love the $30 washer pump kits! guaranteed to lift a head gasket in no time!!!
:add_wegbr

[jmidolo]

.so you won't see a war in here!

Again, not my intention. I wasnt aware of any duking it out between you and razor....like I asked before..who's Razor :fragez:

[Razor]

No, that wasn't my intention...I'm considering looking at either alky/propane come spring and wanted to know the pro/cons of them and also, if I go the alky route which sytems offers what over the other. Razor..is that Julio??

Yes.. its Julio :zahn:

We both offer drop in and go systems for your Buick. We just take different avenues for getting the same liquid into the motor.

:yessir:

[jmidolo]

We both offer drop in and go systems for your Buick. We just take different avenues for getting the same liquid into the motor.

:yessir:


Gotcha, always dif ways to achieve the same result,


Yes.. its Julio :zahn: :

That was the reason for this post :couch:
http://www.t6p.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1144


So, with out starting a war, you've both got progressive systems, you both use high quality components, no 30 dolla washer pumps, you both have prof. looking kits..are there any main components that vary? Just looking for facts, not hearsay.

[SMC]

Me & Razor will go private and come up with something to show various features w/o stepping on any toes....OK? :applaus:

[jmidolo]

Me & Razor will go private and come up with something to show various features w/o stepping on any toes....OK? :applaus:


That's cool if you wanna go that way. Just looking for a compro between the 2. Just reading both websites, it looks like cosmetic diffs to me but I'm a newb in this topic.

[Razor]

Steves uses an internal pump, mine an external. Tho you can order a kit with an external from Steve.

We use different styles of pumps. Both use braided hoses, same nozzles, and both offer in-car control.

The basic SMC kit has a 2 quart reservoir, tho you can order larger containers. I use the factory GM tank, new, which holds 1 gallon.

To be honest, the difference between us is the pump and controller issue. The rest of the kit aside from wiring(SMC is easier), is basically the same.

I decided on the use of a filter in line with mine, SMC has a mesh filter pre pump.

I mfg my own controllers, and its operation/adjustability is unique. I blew a brain gasket developing it. SMC mfg's his own controllers as well. And has been doing so for years, and 1000's of kits.

If you have any specific question, ask. We both are here to support our products and assist with any questions/issue.

[jmidolo]

Great response. :applaus:

What type of, what word do I wanna use, mileage or boostage do ya get out out of a gallon? A days wrth or racing? 5-10 passes? or more, less? what about normal driving filling?

Have you known anyone to put the tank in the trunk?? I would think the pump could push it that right ?

[Razor]

That's cool if you wanna go that way. Just looking for a compro between the 2. Just reading both websites, it looks like cosmetic diffs to me but I'm a newb in this topic.

Thats why we're help to assist newb's with questions.

[Razor]

Great response. :applaus:

What type of, what word do I wanna use, mileage or boostage do ya get out out of a gallon? A days wrth or racing? 5-10 passes? or more, less? what about normal driving filling?

Have you known anyone to put the tank in the trunk?? I would think the pump could push it that right ?

Cosumption depends on requirements. Big difference between wanting to run 19 lbs on a stock GN vs 25 on a modded one. The higher the boost, the more needed to quench the KR. And obviously the higher consumption.

I use approx 7-8 oz per pass. at my performance level. You can do the math :albert: If I had better IC, that number could come down. And a lot of "seat time".

[jmidolo]

I run 19lbs w/93 and a JC chip :) 25 on the street would be FUN.

So, anyone using propane???

[mike85gn]

I've been throwing around the propane option myself, but I just can't bring myself to commit at that cost. I think if I do add alternate injection, it will probably be one of the available alky kits, look at the level of support you get!

[Badinblack6]

Joe, I don't have any experience with propane and I don't know all the pros and cons, but in my opinion you can't go wrong with alky. I have the SMC dual nozzel setup and can run 23lbs no problem w/93 and if my tune is on I can get to 25lbs without knock. I just run straight denatured because everytime I add water to the mix I get knock. Consumption depends on how much of a lead foot you have, sometimes I fill up once a week sometimes once a month. My car is pretty much a daily driver (3-4 days a week) I'll drive it to work, etc. If your gonna go alky SMC is a great option and I have only read and heard good things about Razor so I don't think you could go wrong either way. HTH :rock:
Chris

[zam70]

Hey Joe - shipped the mats today...

Anyway, to the situation at hand.
I personally chose alcohol for my car. I run 26lbs boost on pump (92) and the spray - single nozzle kit w/TE60, 009s, & MPE stretch IC, and have yet to see any knock. I run pure Methanol in mine (I run a methanol specific pump) but could run denatured as well if I wanted.
The #1 reason I decided on the alcohol VS Propain - you can get the alcohol at ANY hardware store. Worse case, you could even run straight water in a pinch (but it wouldn't work as well.)
The alcohol seemed like a more convenient way to go IMO.
I drove for about 1/2 the summer (put it on midway through) and had 3 or 4 trips to the track and used about a gallon total. It really doesn't go through much after you get 'er tweaked in.
My only regret is that I didn't do it sooner.

I personally use the SMC contoller with my own bits and pieces for the rest. It works great. Razors controller was not out when I made my purchase though so, I didn't really make a choice between the 2. I have been thinking about trying Razors progressive controller to see how it works.

IMO, you can't go wrong with either setup. Both offer great support and stand behind their product.

[jmidolo]

Thanks for the mats. As for alky, yea, 25 psi would f'in rock on the street. LOL. I'm going to get this combe good and dialed in 1st then think about the alky towards mid summer again. Too many other things I gotta buy right now for the car (s)

[RillyBitterGN]

well, since no one else has really chimed in about propane, i guess i will. The Pro-Pain kit is a great kit with top of the line components. It is very well thought out, and easy to install.

The only problem I have had with the kit is tuning. You are pretty much just on your own when you try to tune in the system. You dont have the advantage of being able to ask your fellow buick buddies to help you tune in your car like you would if you had alky. When you ask for help with tuning propane in, most people just look at you and say "GEE, I dont know anything about that, but if you had alky I could help you". :dong: Alky is far more common in the buick community and more well known.

Dont get me wrong, i like my propane kit and the reactions I get when i show people the 20lb tank in the trunk :SHOCKED: (I modified the mounting bracket to allow the bigger tank) :rock: But i just wish that i had someone to help me tune it in better. I have had it for over a year now and still am nowhere even close to the performance potential of the car. :nixweiss:

[jmidolo]

The only problem I have had with the kit is tuning.


What's the details on your car? Have you run it w/the propain? What times, boost, chip, turbo etc.... Curious to hear.

[HairDrier]

Bill have you talked to Jay about tuning the kit? He did extensive testing and uses the kit himself. In the past he has helped me a lot with tuning

[jmidolo]

Bill have you talked to Jay about tuning the kit? He did extensive testing and uses the kit himself. In the past he has helped me a lot with tuning


If you're talking about Jay Carter...he made it :)

[HairDrier]

Yeah I know. Thats what I meant

[jmidolo]

Yeah I know. Thats what I meant

So, you have propane also then?

[HairDrier]

No I was suggesting someone to Bill to help with his tuning issues. If I had it I would be a little more helpful to him

[RillyBitterGN]

What's the details on your car? Have you run it w/the propain? What times, boost, chip, turbo etc.... Curious to hear.

I have an 87 Gn:
TA49, THDP w/ electric cutout, XP pump (hotwired), 009's, stock IC, ATR 2 1/2in SS duals, Rebuilt trans (by me) with trans go shift kit, 2800 stall TCS converter and blue racing clutches.... yada yada yada and plenty of other mods. and of course Pro-Pain.

I quite a collection of chips that i have tried actually. I have a RA93 chip that i used before propain and ran a 13.0 on just pump gas NO boosters/alky/propain etc. @19 lbs of boost

When i got the Pro-Pain i had jay burn me a JC100 octane chip for it, but i never got it to run correctly with it. it just always seemed to be running rich, and have knock at partial throttle. The best i ran with that chip and propain was 13.4 @ 21lbs of boost (no knock retard in 1st and 2nd but a shit load mid 3rd. around 6-9 deg.) Using the 99 jet @ 120psi reg, and 190psi bottle

I went to see Lonnie D. for some tuning help. He had my car for about 4 weeks trying to tune it in :rolleyes: but when i got it back from him it ran a 14.1 something @ 26psi and 12+deg. of knock. Yeah, i was pissed...

After trying to tune in the propane for about 4 more trips to the track and countless "midnight tuning sessions" :zahn: i couldn't seem to work out the gremlins. so I thought that mabey something had happened to the car. so the next time i went to the track i used the same combo i had been using prior to propane (RA 93), but with race gas instead of pump gas, and ran a 12.48 on the first pass (I twisted the backing plate and brakes off of the pass. side of the rear end on the 2nd pass at the line building boost) :rock: so that to me was good enough to varify that nothing was wrong with the car.
I just need to have someone (THAT KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING!!!) help me figure out what the heck im doing wrong with the propain. I KNOW IT IS NOT THE KIT, it is just me not being able to tune it in for some reason. At the end of last season I talked to Dave Fiscus on the phone and he said he would be happy to help me tune it in, so mabey when the track re-opens in march i will have some better news for you guys.

HairDrier- No i have not talked to Jay at all about tuning the kit, I'm sure he would be glad to help, but in the past i have found that it is just much easier to have someone at the track with you that can see the results as you run each pass, rather than bombard them with info the day afterwards. Now that you mention it, i will probably shoot him an email to see what he says though.
Bill Ritter

[jmidolo]

Damn. Well, I can't say that I know anyone running it, and it seems like your car is running fine without it from your times. what are you running for FP? Do you have any scan data from those runs when you did have it on??

[RillyBitterGN]

Damn. Well, I can't say that I know anyone running it, and it seems like your car is running fine without it from your times. what are you running for FP? Do you have any scan data from those runs when you did have it on??

FP varies with the chip i use, anywhere from 42-50psi static depending on the temp of the day, bost etc. Yes i do have scan data from the runs, but it was at the end of last november (when the track closed) that i recorded it. I dont remember which file went with which run anymore. I Usually try to get my EGT's in the 1550-1620 range, but i dont really tune with 02's as they are very radical and inconsistent readings for some reason when i use the propane.
Like I said though, the track opens back up on feb. 28th, so you can count on me being there to try to tune it in with the propain. I am determined to figure this out, and i know that i will eventually. Im going to install a RJC power plate, Dutt neck, and try a turbotweak chip and see what that does as well. I will keep you updated.

[HairDrier]

The KR is killing your times. turn the boost down and start all over again. Instead of cranking it to 26psi and having lot of knock, ffind out the max you can run without knock and then figure out why you cant run more. Good luck and keep us posted. We will get that bad boy screaming!!!

[GONE N SIXTY]

I run 100% den. alky...

[RillyBitterGN]

... quite a collection of chips that i have tried actually. I have a RA93 chip that i used before propain and ran a 13.0 on just pump gas NO boosters/alky/propain etc. @19 lbs of boost

...The best i ran with that chip and propain was 13.4 @ 21lbs of boost (no knock retard in 1st and 2nd but a shit load mid 3rd. around 6-9 deg.) Using the 99 jet @ 120psi reg, and 190psi bottle

I went to see Lonnie D. for some tuning help. He had my car for about 4 weeks trying to tune it in :rolleyes: but when i got it back from him it ran a 14.1 something @ 26psi and 12+deg. of knock. Yeah, i was pissed...

. so the next time i went to the track i used the same combo i had been using prior to propane (RA 93), but with race gas instead of pump gas, and ran a 12.48 on the first pass (I twisted the backing plate and brakes off of the pass. side of the rear end on the 2nd pass at the line building boost) :rock: so that to me was good enough to varify that nothing was wrong with the car...
I

---HairDrier: "The KR is killing your times. turn the boost down and start all over again. Instead of cranking it to 26psi and having lot of knock, ffind out the max you can run without knock and then figure out why you cant run more. Good luck and keep us posted. We will get that bad boy screaming!!!"


No, no, no. Im sorry, you must have mis-read my post. I know that im not supposed to have KR, I was just stating that when i got it back from L.D. after 4 WEEKS of tuning, that is what it ran and the amount of KR.

The Best time I have rune W/O KR with propain is like a 13.5 with the RA93 chip and 19lbs of boost, I was just stating that i had used the 100oct. chip and ran a best of a 13.4 somehow even with the KR. (which I could have run without the propane anyways) I didnt see any point in using that chip anymore since i could run that kind of boost level and faster times with the 93 chip, so i just tossed it to the side and moved on. i just figured it was too much timing and chalked it up for experience.
I NEVER try to run with even 1deg of KR if possible, i am well aware that it slows the car down drastically. My fastest times (with race gas) were with NO KR at all, and the turbo wide open (as much boost as the turbo could build, which for me was 26lbs) because i dont have any "race chips".

I only ran race gas to varify that everything was still the same with my car as before i started messing with propane. I am now in the process of slowly building back up from 17 psi boost to whatever possible with propane by small increments. I first maxed out the car on pump gas alone, then started to add in propane and move up.
In other words, i am already doing exactly what you just told me to do. Sorry if i lost you, i know that im not exactly the most through person with explaining details. Right now though, the tuning is on hold till the weather warms up enough to get out the car. I will definitely keep you guys posted though. Im sure that i will see much better results this year with the propane, i just need more time to tune it in

[JayC]

Where are you injecting the propane and do you have a power plate on the car?

Realisticly you should be able to use the next to largest jet shipped with the kit as a starting point and as long as you have good pressure at the tank, it shouldn't be a big problem.

Now if you put too much in (What it sounds like to me), yea, its going to slow WAY down. Probably knock too.

With propane, I'd error to the lean side on your scan tools. Not extremely but some because stoich on propane is higher than it is on gas.

[nick]

Now if you put too much in (What it sounds like to me), yea, its going to slow WAY down. Probably knock too.

exactly what i found out.

too much = slow.. thats real evident. on the hotairs you have to use a tiny ass jet.. even if you have a big ass turbo. I dont know why.

i started with the default jet and the car HATED IT.. right now i think im using 75% dc and the 28 jet.. the car loves it. 28psi overboost (line popped off actuator) and the car survived... think the propane is doing its job :arco:

[RillyBitterGN]

Where are you injecting the propane and do you have a power plate on the car?

Realisticly you should be able to use the next to largest jet shipped with the kit as a starting point and as long as you have good pressure at the tank, it shouldn't be a big problem.

Now if you put too much in (What it sounds like to me), yea, its going to slow WAY down. Probably knock too.

With propane, I'd error to the lean side on your scan tools. Not extremely but some because stoich on propane is higher than it is on gas.

I am injecting the propane in the hose from the IC to the up pipe (stock location IC). I do not have a power plate on the car right now. But I have one sitting right in front of me that i am giong to put on this weekend. Is this a problem? or a plus with the propane? I used the 2nd biggest jet (86) to start with, as you said, and eventually went up to the next one whick is a 99 (largest). If im rolling OUT of the throttle down to about 15psi (or whatever the turn on point is set at at the time) the engine bogs for a few seconds before the kit turns off. Is that a good indicator of me using too much??? also, what kind of psi (regulated) do you run? I've tried anywhere from 100psi to 190. I have not snipped the green wire that some have either.

Also, what would you consider "erroring towards the lean side on your scan tool"? EGT's in the 1620's? 02's in the 780's? or do you go even leaner?

Your reply is greatly appreciated. Thanks Jay

[JayC]

Drop the pressure down to about 110-120 and try it again with the same setup.

As far as the power plate, I can see where it could cause problems but no one has reported any back.

[HairDrier]

I dont see how you can go any leaner that 1600* EGTs either. Hotter than that and things start to melt!!!!!!

Where your EGT's that hot when you were getting the knock? If so its too lean.

[JayC]

EGTs can be artificially high when youre too rich.

[HairDrier]

Hmmmm, but they probably wouldnt be rich EGT's if he was getting knock at the same time right?

[JayC]

You arent paying attention.

Yes they could be. You can get knock when you are overly rich.

[1badTTA]

The hardest part of running propane is that it is a fuel an will make you go rich alot quicker than you would expect. Also it will cause rich knock easier than just gas. I found that to tune it is best to start out with very little propane (smallest jet and 90-100psi regulated pressure) on the best tune you can get for pump gas and slowly turn up hte boost then add a little more propane then more boost.

I can't tell you what the max I can run is since my tranny is going south and I just have the boost turned down now to try to get the tranny to live untill I can afford to get it rebuilt.

As JayC said, err on the lean side and you will have better results. Lower timing also helps, I would guess 21deg max.

For reference, I had the best luck with the smallest jet, 50% DC, turnon around 14psi (knock at 16psi on 91oct) and regulated pressure at 85-90psi. This allowed 19-20psi on a stock turbo and injectors with a chip that has too much timing (24deg) and the only KR I had was on the shifts. O2's were around 790-800, and anything higher would cause Knock I could have gone even further but ran into other problems and didn't want to break anything.