How much boost on Alky

[87GN]

I just installed mine and really like it. how much boost have you guys hit with little or no knock:nixweiss:

[SGRIM]

Have not personally done it, but depending on turbo eff. level I would think should be able to run up to 28psi no problem if all in order. Just IMO:arco:

[Vacuum 6]

When its tuned correctly 26#.

[87GN]

I ran 24 with no knock,you guys think 26-28 that seems very high:SHOCKED:

[Bryan C.]

I have seen 25# on a friends car.

[DARRELLTHOMAS]

When your head gasket blows, you go just below that:add_wegbr

[DARRELLTHOMAS]

I'm trying to figure this out myself on my car.

[turbo2nr]

I'm staying at 24PSI with a 70 turbo on pump gas, one nozzle.

[justabuickv6]

25 with no knock. I have hit 28 just for an instant when I opened up the exhaust, but I don't do that anymore. 104k miles

[87GN]

I'm staying at 24PSI with a 70 turbo on pump gas, one nozzle.

That is my combo and I may push it to 25:couch:

[TURBOTWIN2]

When your head gasket blows, you go just below that:add_wegbr
How much torque on that bolt? Turn it still it strips, then back it off half a turn!

[ttypewe4jim]

32 psi while testing.... Backed the car back down to 30 psi now tough but let me tell you the freaking thing went 2 mph quicker on alky then it ever did on pump gas :)

[turbo2nr]

huh?? I'd hope you gained a little more than 2MPH pump gas vs/ pump gas and alky.

[pacecarta]

28/25
thats 28 1st-2nd gear , 25 -27 third

27/22 timing
thats 27* timing 1-2nd / 22 third

on a single nozzle M15 with 50# injectors

you can run more boost in first and second than you can in third and with lower timing you may be able to tolerate more boost

your three bar map sensor commomnly used with alky will max at about 29.4 psi which means no further increase of alky being fed
30+ psi shoouldnt be a real problem just have to take steps getting there and adjust fuel to match ,

[turbopowered68]

Can you run a "wet" alky system to help with higher boost levels?

[turbo2nr]

Do whut?

[turbopowered68]

when u run nos. U can run another injector with gas that comes on at the same time.This is called a wet system

[turbo2nr]

Methanol IS a gas. So you are already spraying "wet". That's what I ment. So you want to spray meth and gas? WTF?

[turbo2nr]

I had a 7th injector for xtra fuel, so I guess I can't make fun of you. :arco:

[ttypewe4jim]

huh?? I'd hope you gained a little more than 2MPH pump gas vs/ pump gas and alky.


Sry I wasent clear... The car picked up 2 more mph on alky then it ever did on race gas.... :rockwoot:

[SGRIM]

Sry I wasent clear... The car picked up 2 more mph on alky then it ever did on race gas.... :rockwoot:
Jim, you mean 93 w/alky vs 116?

[turbo2nr]

I think he was drinking alky and saw the numbers change?

[Nick Micale]

Have not personally done it, but depending on turbo eff. level I would think should be able to run up to 28psi no problem if all in order. Just IMO:arco:

I have not run on alchy at all personally, but have seen the carnage of guys running high boost with it.

They say "I never recorded and knock" but blow head gaskets?:confused:

Or, "I was just driving along and the engine just quit?" Yes, with a rod hanging out the side, it will NOT run.:thinking:

Personally do NOT understand how alchy is, or can be, substituted for real race gas. In alchy race motors, there needs to be at least twice as much alchy for combustion than in a gas motor. So in theory you would need to inject more alchy than gasoline per cylinder for max power?

Wonder how much engine damage due to alchy we do NOT hear about on the internet?:bs2:

[Vacuum 6]

Personally do NOT understand how alchy is, or can be, substituted for real race gas. In alchy race motors, there needs to be at least twice as much alchy for combustion than in a gas motor. So in theory you would need to inject more alchy than gasoline per cylinder for max power?

Wonder how much engine damage due to alchy we do NOT hear about on the internet?:bs2:

Max fuel replacement is 20% when using alky. Alky is used to cool the intake air (suppresses knock). Chemical reaction going on, called flashing, when the alky hits the hot air. Julio told me this “Past 20% fuel replacement its gets hairy. Past 40% more than likely it will preignite.. If you hit spark/fuel cut when over spraying.. you'll kick a rod out the block”.

[turbo2nr]

I guess we'll hear about the results of over spraying from the new Alky class. Have the cameras ready!

[turbopowered68]

Max fuel replacement is 20% when using alky. Alky is used to cool the intake air (suppresses knock). Chemical reaction going on, called flashing, when the alky hits the hot air. Julio told me this “Past 20% fuel replacement its gets hairy. Past 40% more than likely it will preignite.. If you hit spark/fuel cut when over spraying.. you'll kick a rod out the block”.

What negative results would you get from spraying water/alcohol or just water?
I have seen the propane kits are does any good?
Why are turbo people terrified of .N.O.S?

[Vacuum 6]

Per Julio...If you way oversaturate methanol, you will get into pre-ignition and blow your motor up. If you oversaturate water.. you will hydro the motor..and blow your motor up. Every single case of this has led to problems.

[joed]

Yes, there are limits to everything. Like everybody keeps saying that's been on alky a while, to be safe, go slow be patient and methodical, watch the #'s and stay off the hairy edge. These cars need a little common sense applied first and foremost. Quick story...My dad lived in Florida and had a "breakfast pal" that was a retired top fuel mechanic. His kid had a 86/7 GN. He kept telling my dad that they were junk and kept blowing head gasket after head gasket street racing. Now, 10 years later, this forum and shared knowledge has (mostly) squashed those uninformed rumors!:asskickin

Joe

[kshrek]

So, would general consensus be that 20-23 is the overall "safe" range? (beyond that depends on the tuning?)
just added alky to mine and would like to know how far I can go as well. (46.5 lb injectors,ported heads and duttweiller neck if that matters)

[im faster]

i have alky on the way..... can you guys post how you have your set ups???

[Vacuum 6]

i have alky on the way..... can you guys post how you have your set ups???

Which kit?

[joed]

Since it hasn't been mentioned here yet, Julio has posted THE "getting started on alky" instructions somewhere...can someone post a link? It well worth printing it and keeping it handy to re-read. Chuck full of terrific info.

[Razor]

I have not run on alchy at all personally, but have seen the carnage of guys running high boost with it.

They say "I never recorded and knock" but blow head gaskets?:confused:

Or, "I was just driving along and the engine just quit?" Yes, with a rod hanging out the side, it will NOT run.:thinking:

Personally do NOT understand how alchy is, or can be, substituted for real race gas. In alchy race motors, there needs to be at least twice as much alchy for combustion than in a gas motor. So in theory you would need to inject more alchy than gasoline per cylinder for max power?

Wonder how much engine damage due to alchy we do NOT hear about on the internet?:bs2:

Nick,
Call Cal and ask him :beer:. If you want to look at his .log from the alky run at OSW three weeks ago.. have those. Using methanol to further cool down the charge. Drop the VE 15% at WOT.. dropped IAT to ambient at 30 PSI on his car.. running on C16+alky.

Head gaskets will blow alky or not when you get greedy. Period.

Not paying attention will kick rods out of your block.. alky or not.

Improper tuning or injection system design/setup will create issues.

Wonder how many people on the internet will admit they didnt tune their motors correctly after the carnage :owned:

Properly working meth injection setup will get the job of race gas done. I've been beating on mine for quite a while.. never kicked rods out.. but have had my share of HG's from being greedy and having poor machine work performed on head surfaces. I have dozens of datalogs on the FAST.. and now using it with nitrous.

27 PSI at 24.5 degree's timing on 93 octane and a nitrous shot.

On a street setup.. it is the :rockwoot:

On a race car.. it will cure all the IC temperature BS.

But remember.. an alky kit can be anything from a Trico WW motor hooked to a nozzle of a hobbs switch.. to a high pressure, hi volume, electronically controlled setup.

:beer:

[Razor]

Yes, there are limits to everything. Like everybody keeps saying that's been on alky a while, to be safe, go slow be patient and methodical, watch the #'s and stay off the hairy edge. These cars need a little common sense applied first and foremost. Quick story...My dad lived in Florida and had a "breakfast pal" that was a retired top fuel mechanic. His kid had a 86/7 GN. He kept telling my dad that they were junk and kept blowing head gasket after head gasket street racing. Now, 10 years later, this forum and shared knowledge has (mostly) squashed those uninformed rumors!:asskickin

Joe

Joe.. thats the problem with rumors when all the data is not present. That is why I love the net and the ability for anyone to voice opinions/results/theory/ideas/etc.. Take the information, sift through the BS.. over time a clear picture becomes clear.

I try and only believe/disbelieve things after i've tried them. And only after they make sense to me. The older I get the more set in my ways.. as to what works and what doesnt.. what i'll try.. what I wont :icon16:

Hopefully there will be more nitrous data the next few weeks.. yeah yeah.. I know its taboo with the Buicks.. but the data I feel is needed. So far so good.. it aint coming off the car :applaus:

[Razor]

Since it hasn't been mentioned here yet, Julio has posted THE "getting started on alky" instructions somewhere...can someone post a link? It well worth printing it and keeping it handy to re-read. Chuck full of terrific info.

Phase 1

The first thing to do is make sure the engine is in tune with no abnormalities. Abnormalities could mean it has a rod knock.. Spewing oil out the breathers.. blowing steam out of the exhuast.. etc.. Or lots of miles on the original plastic timing chain. As with rev'ing and racing an engine to its potential there are risks involved. Hopefully below the information contained will allow a properly operating motor to achieve its potential.

The use of a scanmasterII, direct scan, turbo link, etc to confirm numbers is my second step. I'll list a set of these numbers which are Turbo Buick specific. And the setup of these numbers is "my" rule of thumb. And i'll only be listing those adjustments I feel are specific.

TPS(throttle position sensor) = .38-.46 at idle. Typically mine is set at .42-.44

IAC(Idle Air Control) = 15-30 at idle. Any number above zero will do. Tho I like a little room.

MAL(Malfunction codes)= zero

BLM(Block Learn) = Long term fueling adjustment. This one is what can make or break you. Any vacumm leaks or issues will show up with increased numbers. Depending on chip will range from 105-150, or 90-160. If your at the end of one of those ranges or close to it.. get working on this first. I wont get into what it takes correcting this condition in this thread. And careful with "open loop" chips that lock the BL at 128 at idle. Target is +-10 from 128. I like to see +-5 from 128 at idle.

Lastly. Fuel economy and oil. These typically can tell a lot. If the car is getting great gas mileage, more than likely its ok. Likewise if the oil is clean and doesnt smell like fuel.. I hope this makes some sense.

Next is make sure there are no drivability issues, ie stumbles.. runs rough, black smoke out the exhuast, etc. You get to a light.. car doesnt shut off.. etc..

Now if you've made it this far, more than likely the chip, injectors, MAF, etc are in order.

Note, a new Walbro 340 or XP pump with a hot wire kit should be on the vehicle.

Then, we'll work on low boost tuning. This can vary from car to car as the amount of modifications/engine work/altitude/etc can affect how much boost one can run on 91-93 octane fuel by itself.

As the car comes up on boost the motor should feel silky smooth without any hesitations. And the knock readings should be at zero. Any issues at this point.. stop and work on them. So lets say the car runs 16 PSI(hypothetical number) and does so cleanly without any trace of knock retard. If so.. your light years ahead.

Make it so far.. The hypothetical number stated(16 psi) can vary from 13 PSI on one car to 22 PSI on another. And once you increase boost from that number.. the knock starts appearing on your scantool. Or increase timing from that number. If so.. this is whats to be expected.

So now the motor is running cleanly at mild boost and we wish to increase this. The options of higher octane gas, alky injection, and use of an octane boost(ie xylene) will allow the added boost.

I will try and do this in separate parts. And what I have found makes the transition into alcohol injection as smooth as possible

Phase 2..

On stock computer car utilizing a chip(eprom) this is an area that can make the transition into AI(alcohol injection) easy or hard. The issue stems from adding an additional injector on the motor(alcohol) and having the fuel/timing tables setup to compliment this. Typically most street chips will work with AI. Examples are the Thrasher 92, Reds 93, Lubrant 93, etc.. These chips typically state a PSI. Ie 17 PSI. What this means is at WOT the injector duty cycle programmed into the chip will only deliver enough fuel for lets say 17 PSI. Now you throw an alcohol kit on the car and run 22 PSI. The extra 5 psi worth of fueling came from the AI system. For the longest of time my back-up chip was a thrasher92 in the process of experimenting with different chips and AI. I would always count on that chip in case of any weirdness.

Now fast forward technology a little. My current favorites are the TurboTweak chip for alky, the Extender, and the Max-Effort.

The alky designation now means we'll throw in additional timing in lower gears, reduce timing in higher gears, expect a reduction in fueling to compliment the AI, and allow flexibility in tuning the parameters within the chip to "tweak" its operation with the motor.

While I have lots of experience playing with the Turbo Tweak and Max-Effort, I have used with success the Extender as have lots of my customers.

I dont want to say someone else's chip will not work, this is a fine line, but want to express what I have found has worked seemless for me. For a simple plug-play chip.. the turbotweak chip on installs I have done.. has made the transition seemless.

Just to note, my vehicle currently supports the Max-Effort ME-r

So you got a chip... what next.. unplug the connector by the battery, put the chip in, plug in the connector, set the fuel pressure per chip makers recomendation.. drive the car and let it learn the new chip.. go to the above post.. and follow through the numbers on it. If the drivablity is ok.. install the AI system, and start the tuning process.

If you've made it this far, set the gain knob on the controller to 1/2-3/4 of its limit. Leave the internal controls on the PAC alone. And take the car out on its maiden voyage at "The Track"

One thing that can be done is while the engine is hot, if you press the "test" button you will notice the scanmaster numbers jump into the 800's.

Now..
While driving, build boost slowly and watch the needle on the boost guage start to increase. As it sweeps past the 4-5 PSI mark, the "turnon" LED will illuminate indicating the signal from the MAP has been recieved. As the boost rises you'll also note the "Power Injection" bulb will also increase its illumination. Note there are no hesitations, surging, or other drivability issues. The motor should feel silky smooth as if nothing was happing. If so monitor your knock guage and increase the boost level.. if everything works as planned, you should be running the boost you ran previously without.

Next if zero knock was displayed, increase the boost on the motor. Repeat your steps down the track.. and keep increasing boost till you reach "your" comfortable level. Everyones comfortable level is different

Lets say your goal is 23 PSI, work your way from 16 to 23 gradually by increasing boost levels. Now while the motor is at WOT you'll notr the O2 readings on your scantool. Typically I shoot for upper 700's top of third gear. This provides lots of cushion/space for mistakes. The controller will increase adding alcohol the more boost the MAP see's. This keeps you from constant adjusting.

More than likely, you'll max out the boost rod on the turbo before you'll see 23 PSI unless using an external gate, heavy duty actuator, bleeder(boost controller), or an electronic boost controller.

Now your at 23 PSI.. your target.. we'll look into making the most power at this boost level.

Next is lets look into the timing and fueling. if the O2's displayed show a pattern of 760-770-780-770-775.. leave the fuel pressure/fueling adjustmenst alone in the chip.

Now lets advance timing on the chip. Do this in small increments a few degree's at a time. Repeat testing watching for knock activity. On the TT chip one can advance the 1-2 timing, as well as the 3-4 timing. Advancing timing will make more power. Tho for a street application, the more timing run, the less cushion there is for knock.

Watch your timeslips for MPH increases. If the MPH is going up.. your making more power. If the vehicle has terrible traction, disreguard ET. Tune for most MPH. And most MPH increase from the 1/8 mile to 1/4 mile.

Most of the cars I have installed kits on and tuned, the factory presets I have made inside the controller has worked out perfect. Dont ask how I came up with this

Phase three..

Next is kit specific tuning on my system.

Lets say your at 23 PSI boost and you advanced the timing to 26 degree's in first/second gear and now your experiencing some knock activity. Increase the blue gain knob on the controller. Perform another run.. if you find that maxing out the blue gain knob there is some knock activity and want more alcohol sprayed into the motor, go into the controller and advance the "Initial" knob from the factory preset of 11:30 to the 1'oclock position. Now back off the blue gain knob back to the 1/2-3/4 setting and give that a whirl. That will make the ramp of alcohol into the motor more aggressive. And work form there. Now that more alcohol is being introduced into the motor, more than likely it will need fueling pulled out.

Fuel can be reduced by various means. My prefered method is within the chip. Place the chip into programming mode and trim fuel.

Keep repeating steps until proper fueling achieves the most MPH increases and et reductions.

This takes work, being methodical, patience.. Thats the fun part.

If using an EGT, shoot for low 1500's pre-turbo. With a low timing chip, these numbers will be mid 1600's. As timing affects EGT's.

If using a Wide Band sensor, shoot for a target of 11.0-11.3 which is sometimes difficult with our cars due to the MAF and ecm. Typically 11.3ish you'll be fine. If a specific number..11.3 is my own preference.

On a scanmaster.. 770-780's

On Direct Scan, watch the pattern from the O2 sensor in scope mode after a run, and watch the O2's coming down into the 770-780 range.

All this time monitoring for zero knock top of third. Any knock activity, increase alcohol volume.

The initial sets up a ramp. In other words when the system activates and sprays into the motor.. it sends a voltage to the pump. The higher the "Initial" the higher in pressure the system starts out at. Moving the Turnon has no affect on the Initial.

Now see if this makes sense, lets say you have the system kick on at 5 PSI and ramp to 25 PSI. Thats a 20 PSI window. If you move the turnon to 8 PSI and leave everything else alone, now you'll have at 28 PSI what you had at 25 PSI. Meaning you still have that 20 PSI window.

Now.. hope I dont lose ya, if you turn it on at 8 PSI and want the same amount you had at 25 PSI you need to increase the gain. To make more increase with the lesser 17 PSI window.

The gain multiplies the the signal from the MAP directly...

Both will increase delivery, but here is how you play with it.

The LT1 and LS1 MAF's .. and some of the older translators can show issue becuase they are more susceptible to airflow disturbances within the pipe. If you have direct scan and record a run, you will see the MAF signal does a saw tooth waveform.

Funny thing is some cars do...some dont.. and this is with the translator. I have heard of some having issues with the "PLUS" when running the wires by the alky system.. interference.

Try and start the spray at a higher boost level, like 8-10 PSI, and also increase the "Initial" to like the 1 o'clock position. That way when it activates.. it also come on stronger and gives a steeper ramp. You can have the system come on at 12 PSI if you wish,or 14 and still deliver plenty at higher boost levels.

And, you can verify if its a translator/extender issue by swapping in a stock GM MAF and regular chip.

So.. check with Bailey(TurboBob) to make sure you have the current chip in your translator, make sure you have an up to date extender chip, make sure your scanmaster readings are within specs especially with the BL numbers, make sure the extender chip is for alky, Try leaning out your idle fueling and wot and more than likeley your problem will go away.

You can also try lower fuel pressure lets say to 40 PSI line off and bring the motor up on boost to 8-12 PSI and see if it cleaned it up.

Tuning takes work. And when it comes to chips... remember the only way to get a correct chip is working with a chip maker until its rite.

No walk in the park sometimes, keep your boost moderate playing with different settings. You'll find the sweet spot eventually.

HTH

[im faster]

cliff notes?????

[Vacuum 6]

cliff notes?????

Come on it’s not that long. Wait until you see Julio’s installation/instruction sheets.:rockwoot:

[im faster]

haha... by the way ist s smc kit

[C6C6CH3vo]

Snow Performance has an optional flow sensing circuit where in the event the alcohol flows below a certain ml/min (clog, leak, dead pump, etc) the sensor sends vdc to a solenoid to activate WGA opening WG and dropping all boost.

Basically when flow stops boost is reduced to venting WG

I don't exactly know the setup on buicks (WGA sees psi to open WG on my Evo), but if it's different, the flow sensor fault trigger can failsafe by other means as well.

[Bruce]

I've run 28 PSI without alky, for a few years before lifting a head. You can blow a headgasket from repeatedly thermally stressing an engine. Nothing lasts forever, with TR the headgaskets are the fuse......

With a F/M, and alky, I'm now running 89 octane. With the lower octane I can run less timing, more effectively, since the lower octane dosen't NEED as much timing as the higher ones. With the alky for additional in cylinder cooling, and F/M I can see running the 28 again, but now on 89, and making plenty of power.
Well, that and having an ignition system up to fully lighting off the charge.